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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
(Sorry about posting ANOTHER thread to ask ANOTHER question, I'm just a little.... :mellow:... confused.)

I decided I'd take another look at the Guestbook PuppyFind.com - Outside Link after finding out that Alice was a puppymill puppy. Everything the people say really made me think. See, some say that they purchased a puppy from them two years ago, 2 days ago, and 2 months ago. All seem very well loved and cared for and they all say that the breeder did an excellent job with socializing and playing with them. :wub: They also mentioned how clean and warm the kennels were and how all the adult dogs looked very well fed and healthy. :huh: Now I'm really confused.

Since they have their USDA license, I was told they were a puppymill. Is it possible to own a lot of animals and still take great care of them? She did mention that they have their grandchildren over a lot. It seems to me like they have a lot of help, but who knows? I think I'm falling into the trap again or just in denial that they neglect their dogs. I guess we'll find out on my surprise visit April 18th.

They do have Maltese puppies, but they also have Morkies, Chorkies, Yorkies, Westie Terriers, Havanese (main one), Bichon, Chihuahuas, Pomchi, and probably a few more mixes.
Which seems pretty outrageous to me.
All of their adult dogs are purebred though, so I guess they're just mixing them with each other.

Someone here said that I could easily have Bichon mixed in with my Maltese. I'm not saying I wouldn't love Alice! :wub: I'd love her no matter what. But I think she was trying to tell me that we're not for certain what could be mixed with her.
The parents of Alice do look like Maltese dogs and no other mix. They weigh 4-6lbs (mom is 4, dad is 4 1/2 - 5?) and that seems to me like Maltese weight. :blink: Maybe I'm wrong?

I'm not sure what to believe about this kennel. I know I, personally, will never buy from them again... but a lot of people who signed the guestbook put that they wanted to purchase another dog from them because they were so well taken care of. A person even said they were very professional. :huh: I'm not saying they might not seem professional, but they obviously aren't professional because they would just specialize in one breed.

Well, your thoughts? I believe they're still somewhat a puppy mill... but it doesn't necessarily mean that the dogs are poorly taken care of. It is inhumane to have THAT many dogs.. but as long as they're cared for, wouldn't that be a little acceptable? :hiding:
USDA License doesn't mean that they abuse or neglect their dogs, it just says that they have to at least have minimum requirements. Not all USDA licensed people have to follow the minimum requirements, right?

Minimum Standards of Care
Here are the basics: if a breeder has more than 3 unaltered females and sells their puppies "wholesale", meaning to someone other than the final owner, they must be licensed by the USDA and are subject to the regulations set forth by The Animal Welfare Act. The Animal Welfare Act is the federal law that regulates the dog breeding industry. The USDA is responsible for setting the "minimum standards of care" by which commercial/mass dog breeders must operate, as well as enforcing the Animal Welfare Act. The commercial/mass dog breeding industry itself had a significant role in determining the "minimum standards of care". Commercial/mass dog breeding facilities that are in full compliance of the Animal Welfare Act usually fall far short of what most of us would call humane.

What I'm trying to say is; yes, they have more than 3 unaltered females and do sell their puppies, I'm not sure if they do "wholesales" with their puppies or not, but does that make them bad owners as long as all the dogs are in a safe, clean environment with plenty of food and socializing? :unsure:? They could just have 3 or more unaltered females and have to be USDA licensed because they sell them, right?



I hope I'm not making this too difficult and I hope you understand where I'm coming from :blush: I could be completely wrong, so that's why I want to clarify it with everyone. The good news is that they had dogs live passed 2 years (on the guestbook at least) and so diseases and genetic defects didn't show up.... unless they will after the 2 years. :faint:

Thanks everyone!
Shelby






EDIT: I got the quote from http://www.tinylovingcanines.org/resources/USDAbreeders.htm
 

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They are considered a puppymill/Backyard breeder because they treat their dogs like farm animals. USDA stands for United States Department of Agriculture. A good breeder shows their dogs in dog shows. They win championship titles and only breed a few litters a year. They also don't have 30 or 40 dogs of different breeds. They try really hard to only breed their own breed since they want to keep the Maltese breed pure. Good dog breeders don't let their dogs go until they are 12 weeks or older. They usually have very good contracts stating that you MUST neuter/spay the dog, and if the dog ever needs to be rehomed, they will go back to the breeder, so they don't end up in a kill-shelter. In other words, they really care about the future of their pups. These are just a few differences between real breeders who show their dogs and puppymills. Sure, they might be clean and well-cared for, but it doesn't sound like they are going to be happy penned up and caged all day, clean or not.
 

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Years ago before we ever heard of puppy mills we bought a little puppy 10 weeks old from a pet store,(a cockapoo) Muffy:wub:, the pet store owner told us he bred them and invited us to drive past his house and take a look at the parents. Everything looked great, so six months later we bought another cockapoo from them (Annie):wub:
Both babies were the love of our life. We noticed at one year Muffy just couldn't keep up with Annie on walks but just thought Annie had so much engery and our Muffy was just easy going:unsure: when Muffy turned 3 he had problems with his pads on his feet, vets could never figure out why his pads were so swollen, we spent hundreds of $ but never had a answer, by the time he was 5 he was a ticking time bomb:blush::w00t: he had so many health issues, he lived to be 12 years old we spent over $10,000 on our boy, he was the love of our lives:wub: Annie was always healthy never any problems, my point is now that I know all the facts I would RUN not walk away from anyone who is a back yard breeder, it seems you answered your own questions in your thread, you have doubt go with your gut. If you decide to get the puppy be aware you could have a baby like our Muffy, are you ready for the $ and the heart break that comes with watching your baby live a life of pain.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thank you. :) I don't think I meant to answer my own question haha. I see how both of your posts makes sense and I have already made it clear to myself that I will never buy from a breeder again unless I'm planning on doing dog shows. Even then, the breeder will have to be top notch. Rescues are where I'll get them in the future ;) Thanks!
 

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Paula, thank you for sharing your story of Muffy.

Shelby, my Lady is also poorly bred from a backyard breeder. Like Muffy, I have been fortunate that she has lived a good, long life, but it has been a very expensive life. She has multiple genetic health issues including epilepsy, diabetes, arthritis, allergies, a heart murmur ..... and on and on. I spend at least $5,000 a year on her diabetic supplies, prescriptions and checkups/bloodwork to monitor all her conditions. We usually have one big emergency per year, sometimes two, that runs an additional $1,000.

Lady was perfectly healthy for the first four years of her life - until her genetic time bombs started going off.

Don't be fooled by testimonials on websites. Those type of breeders often use relatives as referrals, make up their testimonials, etc.

A USDA licensed kennel is a high volume commercial kennel. Some are filthy, some have state of the art equipment, but they all have one thing in common. They crank out puppies for profit. They don't "waste" money on expensive health testing or stop breeding a dog who develops crippling luxating patellas which can be passed on to its offspring.

As far as the size of the parents, you really have no idea if they are telling you the truth. Puppymillers are notorious for altering records and falsifying documents. If this puppy is anything but AKC registered, you have no guarantee if she is even purebred. If Bichons have been mixed into the background as they often are, their genes can pop up in puppies from two smaller parents and you end up with a puppy who grows to be a 14 pound adult.

If you have to get this puppy, please do so with the knowledge that there is a very good chance that she will grow up to have genetic illnesses. They may not show up for many years, but they will. Make sure you start putting money away in a special account from day one to prepare. Also prepare for the fact this puppy may never be properly socialized, be hard or impossible to fully housebreak, and may have behavioral issues including aggression as she matures. You may have to consult a trainer at some point.

I am not trying to be unkind, I just think it is imperative for a 16 year old girl to know what she is getting into. Lady has about bankrupted me and nearly broken my heart several times when I've come close to losing her and I am much, much older than you are.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
thank you so much Marj. i'm going to read your message to my mom so she understands what we're getting into too. my parents are not going to give into my pleading, but at least they'll know what's to expect. the good thing is, my parents will pay endless money for vet bills. we spent hundreds of dollars trying to save my rabbit that we rescued from a neglected home. he only lived for a couple more days, after so much was spent on medication, feeding syringes, and a big place for him to live and run and go outside every day. we've spent at least over a thousand on Maggie and some of her health issues - including an emergency hysterectomy and emergency surgery on her neck (still unknown for what it was).
Alice will be my only priority, and i'm willing to go through anything to give her a healthy, long life. i just pray she has one... with all the help i've been getting on here in just 3 days, i'll be as prepared as i can possibly be. if Alice ends up being 14lbs, she'll be my favorite 14lb Maltese mutt.

i really can't believe what i got us into. it's pretty sickening to think about.


EDIT: when i get a job *hopefully soon*, i will start putting at least $5 to the side every week and save up for vet visits and emergencies
 

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I wish your mom would listen to you. It just doesn't make sense to spend endless amounts of money on a poorly bred puppy and go through the heartbreak of living with and loving a chronically ill dog.

You can also spend thousands of dollars trying to save a poorly bred dog and still lose it. I hate the thought of you having to deal with that. We have grown women come here and tell stories of losing their first Maltese at a young age because he or she was poorly bred and they are still torn up over it.

My Lady is diabetic and needs insulin shots twice a day, 12 hours apart for life. I have to live my life around her schedule. It is very difficult to even go out to dinner.

As others have suggested, you could simply tell your mother you don't want this puppy.
 

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I wish your mom would listen to you. It just doesn't make sense to spend endless amounts of money on a poorly bred puppy and go through the heartbreak of living with and loving a chronically ill dog.

You can also spend thousands of dollars trying to save a poorly bred dog and still lose it. I hate the thought of you having to deal with that. We have grown women come here and tell stories of losing their first Maltese at a young age because he or she was poorly bred and they are still torn up over it.

My Lady is diabetic and needs insulin shots twice a day, 12 hours apart for life. I have to live my life around her schedule. It is very difficult to even go out to dinner.

As others have suggested, you could simply tell your mother you don't want this puppy.
:goodpost:

Agreed, there are so many rescue dogs waiting in the shelter waiting for a home. Yes, they may have come from a puppy mill or BYB, but at least you will be supporting a rescue, instead of a puppy mill or BYB.

Sometimes breeders have teenage puppies that were held for show, but for some reason didn't work out, and end up being more affordable. Also, don't rule out a retiree from a reputable show breeder. They're adults, but they are just as loving and adjust to the family very easily based on stories heard here from people with retirees. Plus, they are a really good representation of the breed. They cost the price of spay/neuter and possibly teeth cleaning/vaccinations.

I don't think you should give up, keep trying to tell your mom this dog isn't for you. I really don't want you to have to go through the possible heartbreak.
 

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The fact that they sell so many different breeds is a huge red flag
The fact that they sell "designer breeds" (aka mutts...mixed breeds that are currently popular) is a huge red flag

A reputable dog breeder is so in tune with the breed, that generally speaking, they Only breed that one breed - it takes a TON of work to do genetic testing to make sure bad genes aren't being passed on to future litters, etc etc etc. When you take the amount of time/work to make sure everything is perfect for a breeding for just one breed, it doesn't take much to image that someone selling MANY different breeds and even mixes of what they have is just out to make a buck.

If your mom is concerned about money, have you considered getting a rescue instead. Then you aren't contributing money to an operation that isn't reputable...but saving a life. Often these little malts will end up in rescue...lots are now, due to the economy...every age (although bitty puppies go the fastest). But there is A Lot to be said for rescuing a slightly older dog (you can find many in the young range still)... and adoption fees for rescues are quite reasonable (usually around $150 and up). Take a peek at petfinder.com and type in maltese, female or male if you have a preference, the age group(s) you'd be interested in, your zip code and see all the lovely pups that pop up. Since they are mostly living with foster families until they find they perfect home, they are temperament evaluated, etc... you will be in for a sweet surprise (NO ONE can love you like a rescue dog...they have a 'worse' life to compare to and take none of that love you give them for granted ;))
 

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Dear dear Shelby .... please really listen to everything these wonderful ladies are telling you. Trust me sweetie I DO KNOW how you are feeling. You want a Maltese in the worst kind of way and will take and do whatever it takes to have one, I felt the same way. I waited for over 20 years to get my Bailey and I was so desperate to have a fluff that I did the wrong thing and bought from a backyard breeder. Bailey is only 6 months old right now and seems so perfectly happy and healthy but I do not know what his future holds. Just the thought that I could lose him at an early age literally rips my heart out not to mention the suffering he could possibly go through. I only wish I had found this forum and met these wonderful ladies sooner. PLUS .... although (in my eyes) Bailey is beautiful, I looked at all these gorgeous little fluffs here and I had to admit to myself .... he will never be as perfect as they are.

Shelby, many, many, many years ago I worked in a pet store ... selling these poor little souls to unsuspecting buyers. After looking at Paul's website and reading his "contract", I was floored! This contract reads almost word for word the very same as any pet store contract where the puppies are from a puppymill! As for his "guestbook" ... anyone who as any computer knowledge can make up a guestbook and can actually steal comments from another website. If a Maltese is really your deepest desire ..... take the time and $ to get yourself a high quality fluff.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Dear dear Shelby .... please really listen to everything these wonderful ladies are telling you. Trust me sweetie I DO KNOW how you are feeling. You want a Maltese in the worst kind of way and will take and do whatever it takes to have one, I felt the same way. I waited for over 20 years to get my Bailey and I was so desperate to have a fluff that I did the wrong thing and bought from a backyard breeder. Bailey is only 6 months old right now and seems so perfectly happy and healthy but I do not know what his future holds. Just the thought that I could lose him at an early age literally rips my heart out not to mention the suffering he could possibly go through. I only wish I had found this forum and met these wonderful ladies sooner. PLUS .... although (in my eyes) Bailey is beautiful, I looked at all these gorgeous little fluffs here and I had to admit to myself .... he will never be as perfect as they are.

Shelby, many, many, many years ago I worked in a pet store ... selling these poor little souls to unsuspecting buyers. After looking at Paul's website and reading his "contract", I was floored! This contract reads almost word for word the very same as any pet store contract where the puppies are from a puppymill! As for his "guestbook" ... anyone who as any computer knowledge can make up a guestbook and can actually steal comments from another website. If a Maltese is really your deepest desire ..... take the time and $ to get yourself a high quality fluff.



:smcry::crying 2:

these stories make me cry and make me sick. now i feel completely helpless. my puppy is going to die :smcry:i don't want her to and my mom won't listen to me!! she really won't and i can't control her and it makes me sick and depressed to know i'm helping a puppy mill out. :( that's why i tried to convince myself otherwise. i know when i get there to see her i'm going to break and cry. what if she dies? how can puppymill breeders be so **** inhumane and cruel??? :crying 2: i'm listening to everything you guys say and i'm trying, i really am. apparently i can't do anything right :bysmilie::crying:
 

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Be sure to tell your parents that by purchasing from such a breeder you help enable the breeder to keep on breeding that mama dog over and over again, regardless the outcome.
 

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Her mom isn't going to listen to anyone about commercial breeders. If she doesn't get this puppy, she probably won't be allowed to get another. There isn't any point in pushing. We all started somewhere. Mom isn't going to walk away from the deposit. There still is a cost when getting a rescue. Mom doesn't and won't see the difference in buying a poorly bred maltese to one who has a wonderful pedigree. You have to put them side by side for people to see the difference.
Now we just need to support her and make sure she gets good information for when she goes back to get her puppy. This breeder states that she is to get a health garantee, a health certificate, vaccine records, especially worming from a commercial breeder. The contract states at the end that they don't want the puppy handled for 8 or so hours after they get her home. That makes me think Girardia. JMO
 

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Shelby honey, your going to get that puppy and your going to give that baby lots of love, don't be disappointed, you will have many years (hopefully) with a baby that will love you unconditionally. We had Muffy who was a ticking time bomb and I loved him so:wub: he brought us so much love, you have done your best to talk to your mom, now enjoy the baby and have many years of memories. I'm anxious to here about the puppy
 

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:smcry::crying 2:

these stories make me cry and make me sick. now i feel completely helpless. my puppy is going to die :smcry:i don't want her to and my mom won't listen to me!! she really won't and i can't control her and it makes me sick and depressed to know i'm helping a puppy mill out. :( that's why i tried to convince myself otherwise. i know when i get there to see her i'm going to break and cry. what if she dies? how can puppymill breeders be so **** inhumane and cruel??? :crying 2: i'm listening to everything you guys say and i'm trying, i really am. apparently i can't do anything right :bysmilie::crying:
Shelby, please don't misunderstand me or anyone here .... we are not saying your puppy is going to die .... we just want you to understand that this $300 or $400 puppy will (most likely), in the end, cost you thousands of dollars in medical expenses. As mentioned before, I've walked in your shoes .... I've known the desire to want a fluff so desperately and I just do not want to see you get hurt or disappointed.

As for "apparently I can't do anything right", please sweetie, don't feel that way. The fact is .... you like many of us, myself included, just weren't educated enough to know AND were taken by a sweet little face and a dishonest person.

With all being said .... I truly do wish you many, many happy and healthy years with your new baby.
 

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Shelby, with you prepared for the worst and ready to give this puppy all the love you can, I think your puppy will live a nice and hopefully long life.

Make sure you get a full blood panel as soon as possible because if there are any illnesses, you want to combat them early.
 

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Shelby - regardless of what happens with Alice and whether you get her or not, the absolute best thing you can do is to educate yourself on puppymills and backyard breeders so that you can help educate others. I spent today working in the booth for Northcentral Maltese Rescue at the Chicagoland Pet Expo and I was so saddened at the number of people who came up and said they had just bought a designer dog from a pet store. I didn't want to be rude and turn them off about rescues so I just said I hoped they had a healthy dog and that the next time instead of spending large amounts of money at a pet store, I hoped they would consider rescuing a dog who needed a home.

One woman started telling me all the health problems her new puppy had and I finally asked her if she knew that most pet stores get their dogs from puppy mills? She really seemed surprised. I suggested that before she get a second dog she do lots of research and then adopt from a rescue.

Good luck to you!
 

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Dear dear Shelby .... please really listen to everything these wonderful ladies are telling you. Trust me sweetie I DO KNOW how you are feeling. You want a Maltese in the worst kind of way and will take and do whatever it takes to have one, I felt the same way. I waited for over 20 years to get my Bailey and I was so desperate to have a fluff that I did the wrong thing and bought from a backyard breeder. Bailey is only 6 months old right now and seems so perfectly happy and healthy but I do not know what his future holds. Just the thought that I could lose him at an early age literally rips my heart out not to mention the suffering he could possibly go through. I only wish I had found this forum and met these wonderful ladies sooner. PLUS .... although (in my eyes) Bailey is beautiful, I looked at all these gorgeous little fluffs here and I had to admit to myself .... he will never be as perfect as they are.

Shelby, many, many, many years ago I worked in a pet store ... selling these poor little souls to unsuspecting buyers. After looking at Paul's website and reading his "contract", I was floored! This contract reads almost word for word the very same as any pet store contract where the puppies are from a puppymill! As for his "guestbook" ... anyone who as any computer knowledge can make up a guestbook and can actually steal comments from another website. If a Maltese is really your deepest desire ..... take the time and $ to get yourself a high quality fluff.

I don't think any baby is perfect (well maybe Matilda lol) your Bailey is a precious littleman
 

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My Matilda may not be a show quality dog but she is my heartbeat, she's perfect in my eyes,:wub: I couldn't ask for more.
I think your Bailey is precious, and I bet you wouldn't give him up for anything.

Are you KIDDING!!!! I wouldn't part with Bailey for ANYTHING :wub: No, he isn't "show quality" but this little boy is the love of my life. My only regret is that I didn't do more research on the breeder. :smilie_tischkante:
 
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