[Furbaby's Mommie]

Jackie, HELP! or anyone who is familar with sedating an aggressive biter who reacts the opposite that he should on ACE. I've posted about Frosty's aggression and biting when I try to groom him. My hand he bit badly 3 weeks ago is about healed and he's really in need of grooming. I've been just avoiding anything that would push his "bite" button. At 13 1/2 and deaf he is hard to reason with when he's resisting... but now he's needing a bathe and trimming. I have been consulting with his vet who decided to give me acepromazine 5 mg. to be given 1 hour before I start grooming. Well, I did as told, gave it when he was being quiet, had him in a darkened room and let him sleep about 70 mins. He woke up and tried to walk, he was very wobbly so I decided to set up the grooming table and get out the bathe stuff. He didn't see me do it, but I had on my grooming apron. When I started to pick him up he growled and showed his teeth. He obviously knew what's up!! otherwise wouldn't act that way. I tried a treat and waited a few minutes out of sight. He curled up in his bed but when I slowly reach down to him, he lunged at me all teeth and growls. He seems very groggy but fighting it and raises his head if I come near. This is not working!

I called the vet--not in (of course). They'll have someone call me. They said I could double the dose, but I don't think that would help unless he was compeletly out--and there's no way I want to do that. He's never been as bad for strangers and so maybe a groomer could handle him? I hate the whole idea of drugging him, he's old, has a heart murmur and elevated liver enzymes! I don't know what to do.... We are leaving tomorrow for a short camping trip in the RV and I can't bathe my stinky dog!

 

[Ladysmom]

People used to use ACE years ago trailering horses, but I remember that this was always a danger, that it would actually have the opposite effect as it appears to be having on Frosty. Horses would panic and could injure themselves in the trailer.

Did you just speak to the receptionist at your vet's office? No way would I double the dose, especially in a senior guy like Frosty! I'd just keep him quiet and let him sleep it off until you talk to your vet.

In the future, you may just have to use something like Valium (Lady gets that after seizures) or even Benedryl, and muzzle him when he's groggy. That way he can't do any damage.

I don't envy you this difficult situation.

 

[k/c mom]

If you do end up having to groom him yourself, please wear heavy leather gloves to protect yourself. ALSO, can you try not wearing the grooming apron, if Frosty associates it with something "bad". Maybe it will help if he doesn't see you wearing it ?? It doeesn't sound like the medicine had an opposite effect but rather that it didn't do much except make him sleepy.

 

[miko's mommy]

Originally posted by Frosty's Mom@Jul 6 2005, 11:50 AM

  Jackie, HELP!  or anyone who is familar with sedating an aggressive biter who reacts the opposite that he should on ACE.  I've posted about Frosty's aggression and biting when I try to groom him. My hand he bit badly 3 weeks ago is about healed and he's really in need of grooming. I've been just avoiding anything that would push his "bite" button. At 13 1/2 and deaf he is hard to reason with when he's resisting... but now he's needing a bathe and trimming. I have been consulting with his vet who decided to give me acepromazine 5 mg. to be given 1 hour before I start grooming.  Well, I did as told, gave it when he was being quiet, had him in a darkened room and let him sleep about 70 mins.  He woke up and tried to walk, he was very wobbly so I decided to set up the grooming table and get out the bathe stuff. He didn't see me do it, but I had on my grooming apron. When I started to pick him up he growled and showed his teeth. He obviously knew what's up!! otherwise wouldn't act that way. I tried a treat and waited a few minutes out of sight. He curled up in his bed but when I slowly reach down to him, he lunged at me all teeth and growls. He seems very groggy but fighting it and raises his head if I come near. This is not working!

I called the vet--not in (of course). They'll have someone call me. They said I could double the dose, but I don't think that would help unless he was compeletly out--and there's no way I want to do that. He's never been as bad for strangers and so maybe a groomer could handle him?  I hate the whole idea of drugging him, he's old, has a heart murmur and elevated liver enzymes!  I don't know what to do....  We are leaving tomorrow for a short camping trip in the RV and I can't bathe my stinky dog! 

 

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Frosty's mom,

I am sorry to hear of your problems. I am sure we will be facing same issues with our dog when he gets older. One thing that helps us is to throw a blanket over Miko's head when we have to do something he doesn't like. I don't know if that would help with grooming though. We have tried muzzling him but never succeded (not even once) cause he gets upset when he sees the muzzle but maybe that could work for Frosty?

 

[dr.jaimie]

ace can make a dog unpredictable like u have seen...makes the owner more secure and then the dog strikes and harms the owner b/c of the false sense of security. valium/diazepam can have a disinhibitory effect on certain patients. Removing what little inhibition the patient may have to bite you is less than ideal. im am searching a vet site to see what specialist are recommending...

 

[miko's mommy]

Originally posted by LadyMontava@Jul 6 2005, 07:01 PM
ace can make a dog unpredictable like u have seen...makes the owner more secure and then the dog strikes and harms the owner b/c of the false sense of security.  valium/diazepam  can have a disinhibitory effect on certain patients. Removing what little inhibition the patient may have to bite you is less than ideal.  im am searching a vet site to see what specialist are recommending...
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LadyMontava,

I am sure that vets (or groomers) have muzzled my baby before (he doesn't like vets and he is not afraid to show it). I just wonder how they do it? Because whenever we even take out a muzzle, he growls. Do you know how its done?

 

[dr.jaimie]

sometimes the owners are the ones who muzzle cause the dog wont bite them...and sometimes the dog wont bite us if the owner is in the room and we can get the muzzle on. there are times when it is really hard and we have to do the tie gauze technique...where we get a long piece of gauze (the kind that comes in rolls) and make a loop in it and snag the dogs muzzle...then slip the real muzzle on on top of that.

 

[Furbaby's Mommie]

Originally posted by LadyMontava@Jul 6 2005, 07:01 PM
ace can make a dog unpredictable like u have seen...makes the owner more secure and then the dog strikes and harms the owner b/c of the false sense of security.  valium/diazepam  can have a disinhibitory effect on certain patients. Removing what little inhibition the patient may have to bite you is less than ideal.  im am searching a vet site to see what specialist are recommending...
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Lady Montava: I forgot you are on here and are a vet! I would love to know what you find out people are recommending. I talked to one of the Dr.s at our vet clinic today and he says we should try valium. If that doesn't work any better than the ACE did, I don't even want to try it. Suppose we won't know until we do try it. Frosty is 10 lbs. and they had me give him 5 mg. of the ACE. He has some liver impairment, and isn't getting rid of the ACE very fast. It's been almost 9 hrs. and he is walking now but is unsteady and doesn't look right yet. He did eat dinner.

We have used a muzzle for nail trimming and trimming hair on his feet and at the vets for years, but now he fights me when I try to get it on. I took K/C's Mom's advice and got some leather gloves but they aren't very heavy. I'm sure it would still hurt pretty good if he got me. :excl:

 

[dr.jaimie]

there are a lot of posts to the behaviorist on this topic..but many havent yet persued the thyroid panel...b/c it is common...did they test for cushings? i know they checked his thyroid. still searching for an answer...

 

[dr.jaimie]

everything i read is saying either endocrine (cushings or thyroid) or brain....and some suggest to use the product i recommended last time (aniprly) ...might have to live with a stinky dog..i wouldnt want to risk any sedatives.

 

[Furbaby's Mommie]

Originally posted by LadyMontava@Jul 6 2005, 08:03 PM
everything i read is saying either endocrine (cushings or thyroid) or brain....and some suggest to use the product i recommended last time (aniprly)  ...might have to live with a stinky dog..i wouldnt want to risk any sedatives.

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They put him on thyroid for 5 mo. Now I'm tappering him off it. His thyroid was just borderline low, and even on 2 mg. soloxine a day it didn't change much. The highest it ever got on med was 2.3, so they said stop. They want to do a cushing's test, but I've hessitated because I don't know want good it will do, and some of those tests are dangerous. They would just put him on Anipryl, so why not just put him on it for his senility anyway. They said that's OK, as soon as he's off the thyroid. This is the last week of soloxine. Do you think the tests are worth it at his age?

 

[littlepeanut]

Dee, I don't have any advice, but I just wanted to say that I hope you and Frosty find something that works for you guys.

 

[Ladysmom]

Here's a good link about Cushings from the diabetic dogs website with another link imbedded in it to testing for Cushings:

http://www.petdiabetes.org/cushings.htm

 

[dr.jaimie]

well there is medication he can take if he has cushings...so if you want to tr and treat the cause of the aggression, it would be good to know if it was something u could treat with a pill. or u can try the anipryl and see if that helps first.

 

[Maxismom]

My groomer is a behavior specialist so he knows how to handle maxi
he works out of my vets place maxi sometimes gives him attitude but my groomer tells me they have an understanding whatever that is it works

 

[jmm]

In dogs, just a T4 isn't an accurate picture of thyroid function. I would ask for a full thyroid panel. I prefer to see them sent to MSU's Animal Health Diagnostic Lab.

As was already said, some dogs do become more aggressive when mildly sedated. I'd give him some time to recover (a week) and if the vet rx'd valium, it would be worth a try to see if he does any better with that. We use Torbugesic to sedate Mikey as he tolerates that best and occasionally needs to be sedated when he is extremely uncomfortable or his tremors become too severe.

Have you ever tried a basket muzzle where he could still open his mouth? Another suggestion would be a hard plastic e-collar so you could do his body and back end without being bitten.

If he's having quality of life issues, I would be inclined to test for Cushings.

 

[Furbaby's Mommie]

Originally posted by JMM@Jul 7 2005, 05:09 PM
In dogs, just a T4 isn't an accurate picture of thyroid function. I would ask for a full thyroid panel. I prefer to see them sent to MSU's Animal Health Diagnostic Lab.

As was already said, some dogs do become more aggressive when mildly sedated. I'd give him some time to recover (a week) and if the vet rx'd valium, it would be worth a try to see if he does any better with that. We use Torbugesic to sedate Mikey as he tolerates that best and occasionally needs to be sedated when he is extremely uncomfortable or his tremors become too severe.

Have you ever tried a basket muzzle where he could still open his mouth? Another suggestion would be a hard plastic e-collar so you could do his body and back end without being bitten.

If he's having quality of life issues, I would be inclined to test for Cushings.
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He did have the full thyroid panel after the T4 was borderline. Still borderline.
I'm glad to know to wait a week before trying anything else. It sure took a long time for the ACE to wear off. He wasn't normal by bedtime, which was 13 hrs. He seems normal today, but I don't want to push things. I'll mention the Torbugesic to the vet, I know they'll do the valium.
I haven't used a basket muzzle. Mine is the black fabric type. I've been looking for one in the local stores, but probably will have to order it. The collar sounds like a great idea! Don't know why I didn't think of that!
His issues aren't really what I'd think of as quality of life issues. They effect our quality of life! The hair-trigger on biting, not being able to groom him any more, keeping us up at night (sleeps during the day), scared to death in the car (and he used to love to go), total personality change. The physical stuff is all borderline--low thyroid, thinning hair on back and tail, drinks only a little more water, seems hungry all the time but doesn't gain weight. The blood tests show elevated liver enzymes, but not really high.

 

[dr.jaimie]

kinda sounds cushing like...and with cushings u do get elevated liver enzymes. does he have a pot belly..meaning does it kinda hang down?

 

[Furbaby's Mommie]

Originally posted by LadyMontava@Jul 7 2005, 07:10 PM
kinda sounds cushing like...and with cushings u do get elevated liver enzymes.  does he have a pot belly..meaning does it kinda hang down?
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No it doesn't hang down at all. If there's anything different than the shape he's had all his life, his belly looks fuller when he's lying on his side. However he weighs a little less.
I only mentioned the symptoms that I was told were symptoms of Cushing's to show how they are all "suggestive", but so mild. The only thing not "mild" change, is the personality, and aggressiveness.

 

[Ladysmom]

Do you think this muzzle might work for Frosty? It's designed for cats, but I do find some of the cats products work better for small dogs than the dog products do. I like the fact that it blindfolds him, too.

http://www.kvvet.com/KVVet/productr.asp?pf...43D8569675EE5CD