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Discussion Starter #1
I have a opportunity to rescue a mill dog from a puppymill. The breeder is willing to sell me a 3 or 4 year old maltese because she is not a good 'producer'.
This is a sweet dog. When taken out of cage, she trotted around in a large circle, around and around.. from her years of being in a small cage. Broke my heart. My questions are: Do they adapt to a home life? Can they be housebroken? Any experiences you have had will be most helpful. I am doing much research on the maltese and on the puppymills. Of which I am totally against. I have two dogs now, both shelter dogs. They adapted to my home in a very short time and have had no problems with either. I believe in rescue and not buying from petshops or backyard breeders.
It does concern me that this little female has always lived in a small cage on wire. No choice but to potty in this small area. So I know it will be difficult to housebreak. Limited human contact in her short years although she gave me kisses thru her cage. Out of her cage as I held her, she was a little nervous as I would expect.
I would take her to vet immediatly to be fully checked and spayed before I brought her home. Would not take a chance of bringing her around my dogs without vet ok.
I have a few weeks before I bring her home. As she has one pup now that needs to be weaned before they separate them. They told me they start weaning at 6 weeks and take mother away totally at 8 weeks. Which we all know is too young.
I was told this is her first litter (one surviving pup, she had to have c-secion as pups were too big for her and and two did not survive) Bred twice before which did not take. Which is why they are willing to sell her to me.
So... any advise anyone could give me would be most appreciated.
 

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Everyone is going to think that I am heartless, but don't buy this dog. Even if they give you a great deal, giving them money is still keeping them in business.
Also think about the long term with this dog. You already have dogs that you need to care for and this new dog is going to probably triple your vet bills if not more. Because she has been bread and not spayed at a young age, she will be prone to cancer. She is also a puppy mill dog so she is going to have other health issues. I know this dog is tugging at your heart but please walk away.
If you still want this dog then ask them if they will GIVE her to you for free. Then you can "rescue" this dog without supporting their disgusting practice.

Oh and just so you know, my baby is a puppy mill dog. I got her at a pet store before I knew it was wrong. My Fantasia already has some health problems and she is still pretty young (3 in Feb.). All her health problems were noticed by the vet before she was 7 months old. One day when she gets older I am sure she will have more health problems. For now I am happy that her problems aren't so bad.
 

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Originally posted by FannyMay@Dec 17 2004, 08:43 PM
Everyone is going to think that I am heartless, but don't buy this dog.  Even if they give you a great deal, giving them money is still keeping them in business. 
Also think about the long term with this dog.  You already have dogs that you need to care for and this new dog is going to probably triple your vet bills if not more.  Because she has been bread and not spayed at a young age, she will be prone to cancer.  She is also a puppy mill dog so she is going to have other health issues.  I know this dog is tugging at your heart but please walk away. 
If you still want this dog then ask them if they will GIVE her to you for free.  Then you can "rescue" this dog without supporting their disgusting practice.

Oh and just so you know, my baby is a puppy mill dog.  I got her at a pet store before I knew it was wrong.  My Fantasia already has some health problems and she is still pretty young (3 in Feb.).  All her health problems were noticed by the vet before she was 7 months old.  One day when she gets older I am sure she will have more health problems.  For now I am happy that her problems aren't so bad.
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Hi Jodi, just another opinion and mine is not from experience but if Shada is willing to assume the financial and emotional burden of this dog, then why not? I do agree that the price should be very, very low or free, but that may not be possible. If the dog was in rescue she would still have the same adjustment problems, etc. And certainly not every dog who isn't spayed before her first heat gets mammary cancer but I realize the chances are greater. Anyway, I guess the bottom line is that I am a "softy" and hate to see Shada's dream of helping this puppy be shattered and would love to see that poor, sweet baby get a good home...... I'm sort of a "go for it" type of person....
 

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I say you should do it. To answer your questions, any dog can be trained in my opinion with consistency. I truly believe that you will not be "supporting" puppy mills, as they will probably kill this dog if you dont "rescue" her. They have no use for her and since they are heartless to be practicing what is in my opinion a sin against dogs, they probably dont care for her well-being. Just because she wasnt spayed at an ealier age does not mean she will have cancer, there is just a little bit of a higher chance. However, if you do choose to rescue her i would suggest to spay her immediately since you can still prevent other cancers. etc, and she wont get pyometra. Also, she is a puppy mill dog, therefore there is a possibility of healthy problems BUT there is a possibility of these problems with any dog in my opinion. I purchased one of my yorkies from a breeder who breeds with Janet Jackson (she is the president of the yorkie club of America YTCA), Haley (my yorkie) is from high-steppin line. She has had the most problems out of Either of my 2 other dogs (one another yorkie, one a maltese). She has a grade 4 luxating patella on both knees, as well as bad teeth and her personality is VERY timid and she only likes me and her daddy. My point is that although there are risks involved with rescuing a puppymill dog, they need homes too. Its not like you are buying from a pet store or bought there dog from a broker, or even buying from a broker. You are getting her from a puppymill from what it sounds like, and I am more concerned with the well being of this animal. Its not about having a heart or not, its about saving a dogs life. If you are willing to have another dog, I say this sounds like the best and more rewarding option. Even if she has "possible" healthy problems, she needs your love and care and more than anything she needs a warm place to fall.
 

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My point is that although there are risks involved with rescuing a puppymill dog, they need homes too. Its not like you are buying from a pet store or bought there dog from a broker, or even buying from a broker. You are getting her from a puppymill from what it sounds like, and I am more concerned with the well being of this animal. Its not about having a heart or not, its about saving a dogs life.[/B]
Yes that's true, she's not buying from a broker or a pet store. She is buying DIRECTLY from the Puppy Mill!!! Are you saying it's ok as long as you cut out the middle man? Are you going to go to every pet store and puppy mill and buy up all the dogs so that you can "rescue" them?
If this puppy mill had been busted and all the dogs confiscated and were put up for adoption, then I would say go for it. But this dog is being sold. These jerks are trying to cut their losses with this dog and pass her off because she can't make them any money. The point is that these guys are making a buck just like they want. They treat these dogs this way because they know they can make alot of money doing so. If no one gave them money (for a puppy or for an older dog) then they would have no choice but to "go out of business" and then they couldn't hurt anymore dogs. Even though this is a huge goal, it is a goal that I would like to see accomplished. If it means leaving a few sad dogs behind to accomplish this, then so be it. "A small sacrifice for the greater good" I guess you could say.
I don't want everyone thinking I am being mean and that I am heartless, because I'm not. I love my Fantasia and all dogs really. That is why I think we all need to take a stand and not support puppy mills. And yes PAYING for a dog that has basically been issued her death papers IS supporting this puppy mill because it's money in their pockets and that's all they want.
With all that said, I know other people have other opinions on this and that’s what’s great about this forum. We can all voice our opinions. I just wanted to clarify mine.
Anyway, I know I can’t change anyone’s mind if their mind is made up. I just wanted to give another option. Personally I would turn this place in and hope that they get busted and then you can adopt this little baby.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Thank you all for your opinions on this little dog. I am still so undecided.. I am trying to decide with reason and not my heart. They will let her go for 750.00 I of course would take her straight to vet for a spay and update in her shots, as I do not bellieve she has had good care. This would probably be close to a thousand dollars immediately. I wish money was not an issue, but of course it is. And yes that would be putting money in the millers hand. That I do not want to do. I do not want to empty a cage for him to place another dog in to keep this vicious cycle going. I want to help this little one, but I also want to help stop this horrible industry and in saving her, I would be hurting another. I feel like I'm damned if I do, and damned if I don't. On my hand, we are told to not buy from mills or pet stores, for the puppies are sickly due to poor care and breeding and will have a lifetime of health issues.. then we are told to adopt these same dogs from a rescue, for they all deserving of a good home life. Which of course they are. My two dogs I have now are shelter dogs. I believe in giving a forever home to those in need. All I can think about is this sweet little girl who does need a forever home. I have held her and felt her little body trembling.. and seen her trotting around in that circle.. around and around. It truly broke my heart. But in taking her, would I help or just add to the misery of the other dogs?
There is a part of me that wishes I never knew of these puppymills. But a larger part of me wants to scream to everyone.. Listen!! Look!! Learn!! Believe me I tell everyone I can about these mills. I don't think they will ever be shut down, the demand is too hgh. But at the very least, conditions have to be improved. To improve the lifes of these dogs, people have to be educated.
And yes, I have 'turned then in'. I have talked to officials in the animal control system to let them know what I have found. Names, numbers are now on record. I pray now something will be done with this kennel. I am doing what I can as a caring individual.. I hope others follow me. For there are many more kennels out there.. as I said.. listen, look and learn. Together we can make a difference.
I hope. But again.. what should I do??? I am so torn. Thank you all for listening. I pray I make the right decision.
 

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Originally posted by Shada@Dec 18 2004, 02:42 PM
Thank you all for your opinions on this little dog. I am still so undecided.. I am trying to decide with reason and not my heart. They will let her go for 750.00 I of course would take her straight to vet for a spay and update in her shots, as I do not bellieve she has had good care. This would probably be close to a thousand dollars immediately. I wish money was not an issue, but of course it is. And yes that would be putting money in the millers hand. That I do not want to do. I do not <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=24161
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Shada, have you offered them less money? Tell them due to her condition, etc. and potential future medical problems.... offer them $400 and see if they'll take it... they may counter with $500 but that is till better than $750......

ALSO, let them know that the very best breeders do not even sell their breeding females. They retire them and adopt them out, charging only for the cost of spaying and having their teeth cleaned, which the breeders have done before sending them "home". So, $750 for this dog, of course, is way too high..... see if they'll negotiate.....

I would imagine their only other choice is to take her to a shelter.....
 

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Originally posted by MomtwoMaltmuffins@Dec 18 2004, 03:11 PM
If you do decide to take her I would not even mention money to him, just pick her up and run and throw a few $1 bills his way while running and saying to him 'you are lucky I am not turning you in'    Or you can say why dont you just give her to me and I will not turn you in.  I am sure that would put a scare into him.
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I like the second idea...LOL...that should get his attention!!!! My heart goes out to you Shada...it is a hard decision...I would feel just like you do right now in the "d" if you do, and "d" if you don't. Good luck with your decision..but I really like momtwomalt's suggestion...it just might work!!!!
 

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Thanks for the suggestion. But.. then I would be the one at fault. He is doing the minimum required by law. Food and shelter. I would then be arrested for stealing this dog. I have reported him.. 'Turned him in', but again, he is withen the law. Sad as it is. Of course, he does not know that I did this. I am doing what I can legally to stop this kennel. Without him knowing my true intentions. Do you really think if I were to threaten him, he would say, 'take her, and leave me alone.?' No. Do I want to save this dog? Yes. Her and many others. I am planning on talking to him again, telling him a big fat lie to try to get her for less. He is in it for the money plain and simple. I will do what I can to save this dog. Pray for her.. and for me that I do the right thing.
 

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Shada,
I know your heart is aching, and you will do the right thing for you and this dog. Yes, tell this monster a big fat lie, or just the truth. This dog isn't "worth" anything as a breeder, and you have to spend alot to get her vetted, see if you can bargain on the price. I am sure there aren't alot of takers for an older, not cared for dog, his best option is to sell her for research, or worse as pit bull bait, probably only getting 25.00, if that. Or he will just let her die of exposure or to the pound. He might be willing to get a couple hundred out of her. He is counting on your good heart, appeal to his mercenary side, and show that you are willing to walk away. And do walk away if you have to--you have lots of future dollars ahead with her, it may just mean it wasn't meant to be for you or her. (God I hate to think that way...)
Quincymom
 

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I would rescue a Maltese from a reputable rescue place since paying that kind of money is just helping the puppymill and is too high for a rescue. You can adopt a rescue doggie for $150 to $400 depending on the age and size from National Maltese Rescue. They have many Maltese available right now. I fostered a little 6.8 lb sweet dog, Little Bit, for them for 1.5 months and taught the frightened little girl all about love while she was recovering from her spaying. The new mommy renamed her Lil' Bit. You adopt a Maltese that is spayed with all vaccinations and taught love before being placed with you. You are also not supporting the puppy mills by doing so. Just my two cents. I know someone who joined the MalteseBehavior&Training List on Yahoo ( I am a member of) waited until a little girl was available that she felt was for her, sent in an application with the $25 application fee, and was chosen and just adopted a tiny 4 lb little sweet girl from them for a rescue fee that goes to a good cause. I know Lil' Bit's vet care cost so much more than the rescue fee they charged for her.

http://malteserescue.homestead.com/AvailabledDogs.html

Susan & my furkidz in NJ

Originally posted by Shada@Dec 18 2004, 03:42 PM
Thank you all for your opinions on this little dog. I am still so undecided.. I am trying to decide with reason and not my heart. They will let her go for 750.00 I of course would take her straight to vet for a spay and update in her shots, as I do not bellieve she has had good care. This would probably be close to a thousand dollars immediately. I wish money was not an issue, but of course it is. And yes that would be putting money in the millers hand. That I do not want to do. I do not want to empty a cage for him to place another dog in to keep this vicious cycle going. I want to help this little one, but I also want to help stop this horrible industry and in saving her, I would be hurting another. I feel like I'm damned if I do, and damned if I don't.  On my hand, we are told to not buy from mills or pet stores, for the puppies are sickly due to poor care and breeding and will have a  lifetime of health issues.. then we are told to adopt  these same dogs from a rescue, for they all deserving of a good home life. Which of course they are. My two dogs I have now are shelter dogs. I believe in giving a forever home to those in need. All I can think about is this sweet little girl who does need a forever home. I have held her and felt her little body trembling.. and seen her trotting around in that circle.. around and around. It truly broke my heart. But in taking her, would I help or just add to the misery of the other dogs?
There is a part of me that wishes I never knew of these puppymills. But a larger part of me wants to scream to everyone.. Listen!! Look!! Learn!! Believe me I tell everyone I can about these mills. I don't think they will ever be shut down, the demand is too hgh. But at the very least, conditions have to be improved. To improve the lifes of these dogs, people have to be educated.
And yes,  I have 'turned then in'. I have talked to officials in the animal control system to let them know what I have found. Names, numbers are now on record. I pray now something will be done with this kennel. I am doing what I can as a caring individual.. I hope others follow me. For there are many more kennels out there.. as I said.. listen, look and learn. Together we can make a difference.
I hope. But again.. what should I do???  I am so torn. Thank you all for listening. I pray I make the right decision.
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I still think that you should walk away, but if you don't think you can live with yourself because of it then I would find out how much the shelters in your area charge for a drop off dog. Then talk to the "breeder" again and tell him that is how much you are willing to give for her. If he says no, then tell him that's how much he is going to have to pay out to get rid of her at any local shelter. If he still says no then mention to him that the dog isn't worth even that much (the amount that you will offer). I think the going rate for dropping off a cat at a shelter here is $25 but I think dogs are more than that. He might be willing to have you pay him (even though it's not much), rather than him paying someone else to take her off his hands. You can even put it that way, that you are taking her off his hands. Good luck.
 

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FANNY MAY said: "find out how much the shelters in your area charge for a drop off dog. Then talk to the "breeder" again and tell him that is how much you are willing to give for her. If he says no, then tell him that's how much he is going to have to pay out to get rid of her at any local shelter. If he still says no then mention to him that the dog isn't worth even that much (the amount that you will offer). I think the going rate for dropping off a cat at a shelter here is $25 but I think dogs are more than that. He might be willing to have you pay him (even though it's not much), rather than him paying someone else to take her off his hands. You can even put it that way, that you are taking her off his hands."



I agree with Fanny May and I think that this is a great idea on how to proceed. I would definitely NOT pay $750, as this would just encourage the puppy mill to put up the "retired" and "non performing" dogs for sale and allow them to profit even more!
 

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Shada, since you mentioned money is an issue, I would advise you to run, not walk away from this girl no matter how hard it may be.

Fanny May told you about her Fantasia's health problems at only 3. My Lady is a rescue, but originally from a pet shop/puppy mill. I adopted her at age 4&1/2 (she is now 9). Since I adopted her she has been diagnosed with epilepsy, diabetes, inflamatory arthritis, and allergies. Oh, and a grade 1 heart murmur.

I am paying big time for the system that made a few bucks off her along the way, the miller, broker, pet store, etc. It costs me $150 a month just for her medications and diabetic supplies. My vet bills have run about $1,000 every year for the past several years. And Lady came from a private home and has received the best of care, premium nutrition, had yearly dentals, etc. with me for nearly 5 years, and still look at all her problems. I cannot imagine how much money a dog who has spent her life as a puppy mill breeder could cost down the line.

$750 is a rip off. Don't even consider it. A good breeder will spay and carefully place a retired bitch FOR FREE to the right person.

I have finally learned at my age that you can't save or rescue them all. Support rescue, foster if you can, make donations, get involved with the postive side of rescue. See if you can get this miller to turn this girl over to rescue. (I can give you names of good rescues if you are interested), but please don't put one penny in her pocket, if only for the sake of your own pocket!
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Thank you all so much in responding to my post. I have decided, after much research, I will not put money is that millers pocket. That is the wrong thing to do. I will still try to get her if he will let her go. I really don't think he will, I think he will probably sell her at auction if nothing else to try to make a buck out of her. I did talk to him about the shelters when I was there, but this is a amish puppymill. Amish people are a harder type than we are. They treat their animals as lifestock. Few are pets as we have them, as to them, animals are here to be used. In this case to make money. The amish are cashing in for lack of a better term to the demand of puppies. They don't care about the dogs. It is only a money making machine. It is a sad reality.
So, I will go back and try. Then I will walk away with a tear. I hate the thought of leaving her if it comes to that.. but I will. Hard as it will be.
At this time, after all my research and hearing about all the health problems, I am not sure if I should go thru a rescue or find a good breeder. I have always got my dogs thru shelters. Always had good luck, my two dogs I have now are both shelter dogs. Never any problems with them. I believe in taking in the unwanted who are truly in need of a forever home. But I have read about so many horror stories about the health of these rescues. The ones that started out in the mills with poor breeding and care. So now.. still have to decide on that one. I think that will still be my first choice, rescue, but will keep a good responsible breeder in mind also.
I will let you all know what happens. I am going back to the mill in a few weeks to talk again. This little mother has a pup with her now she is nursing, so it would be the 2nd week of Jan. before I could bring her home IF he agrees with that. The miller is expecting me then.. so wish me luck.
Thank you all again. You are all awesome people who have helped me a lot!!
 

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Shada, I think you made very wise decision.

I would still encourage you to rescue a Maltese, Shada, but do it through a rescue group such as Northcentral Maltese Rescue. Adopting through a rescue group is totally different than a "potluck" adoption through a shelter. Each dog is completely vetted so there aren't any health surprises (or huge vet bills), plus they are placed in foster care and evaluated for temperment, "issues", etc. The rescue worker can then place a dog in the best possible situation (for example, a single dog home or one with no cats). The dogs all get training in housebreaking and work on any other behavioral problems before going to their forever home.

Mary Palmer (Northcentral) also takes in many puppy mills dogs so adopting through them would give you the opportunity to still recsue a mill dog. There is also a great support structure there after adoption as mill dogs have ongoing adjustment problems. She does usually place them with at least one other dog, though, for security and confidence since they have never been alone and are very fearful. Do you have other Maltese?

I adopted Lady through my next door neighbor so all her health problems were a surprise. Had she gone through the rescue program, I would have known she had seizures and a heart murmur, plus her first vet costs and dental would have been included. (Of course, the diabetes a year & 1/2 later still would have been a surprise!)
 

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I also think you made a wise decision. I still hope that you can rescue this dog even if it's just long enough to turn her over to a rescue (if you can't afford her vet bills). I don't think he will give her for free but we can always pray that he will. Please keep us updated.
 

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my hollybelle maltese was in a cage all her life until the raid. she even has what i call cage legs. she too had to potty 24/7 in her cage. in the beginning it was rather rough, but we worked until she finally got the hang of pottying outside. i can now take her out and tell her to go potty and she will.
when we first got the dogs out of their cages, we would put them in a baby pool to play. we had some that would start spinning as soon as we sat them down. we would pick them up and just hold them for a while and love on them. after a while, they all quit the spinning.
i would worry about health concerns. if you are willing to do whatever it takes for her she can become a wonderful part of your family.
 
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