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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
“Gluten-free or no-grain diets, which use primarily simple carbohydrates like tapioca or potato, may not have enough fiber compared to diets that include more complex carbohydrates like oats, barley and brown rice,” Weeth said. “What I see clinically in otherwise healthy dogs that are eating ‘gluten-free’ or ‘no-grain’ diets is poor stool quality and increased gassiness. This is often resolved with adding more complex carbohydrate to their diet......in my experience dogs do better when eating diets with a more even distribution of protein, fat and carbohydrate.”

You can read the whole article here:

What?s the Truth About Gluten?
 

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I know Dr. Becker does not necissarily agree with the views in this article and I respect her opinion, however, here is mine.

When I feed Fromm four star, I rotate between all formulas, my dogs eat both grain free and grain inclusive. Though at one time I thought Rocky had some allergies to grain inclusive, he has shown no signs of them since I started making their treats instead of buying them.

When I go grain free, they are sometimes a bit more gassy and their poops are somtimes softer-not softer in a way I would worry about, but still, there is a difference. Not to be gross, but I check anal glands regularly so I'm not really worried about it. I still like both grain free and grain inclusive.

Grain free came about for several reasons: for dogs with allergies and to atempt to simulate a more natural diet. The latter point makes me laugh a little. Sorry guys, but if we want to simulate a more 'natural' diet (which I am a fan of) kibble is NOT the way to go, no matter if it's grain free or not.

I bet Steve (still love that name) would do just fine if you rotate between both the grain free and grain inclusive flavors. I honestly don't think grain, in a dog food, is such a horrible thing-unless, of course, your dog has allergies to it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I know lots of us feed Grain Free Fromm, do you think the Fromm with grains is a better choice for a dog like Steve who has no know food sensitivities?
I am not a canine nutritionist so I am not qualified to answer your question. That appears to be what Dr. Weeth is saying in her article, though.

I personally don't feed the grain free formulas. Lady was a type 1 diabetic and needed complex carbohydrates/high fiber to stabilize her blood glucose through the day. Bailey's breeder recommended Fromm, but not the grain free as the protein is too high for toy breeds according to her and many experts. I chose to follow her advice.
 

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I am not a canine nutritionist so I am not qualified to answer your question. That appears to be what Dr. Weeth is saying in her article, though.

I personally don't feed the grain free formulas. Lady was a type 1 diabetic and needed complex carbohydrates/high fiber to stabilize her blood glucose through the day. Bailey's breeder recommended Fromm, but not the grain free as the protein is too high for toy breeds according to her and many experts. I chose to follow her advice.

You know, on the protien issue, Fromm protien goes up only to about 30%-which from what I hear everyone say-vets, articles that talk about protien levels for toy breeds-is not too high.

However..... when I had to take Rocky to the E-vet for his choking incidient, and she did bloodwork, she said he was a tad dehydrated, and she said that can be caused from feeding a food too high in protien. I told her about the Fromm having 30% and she did not seem concerned with that-but still....

He had, though, also been in his crate for about four hours (this happened on my lunch hour). She attributed it to that. Either way, it's hard to say. I do prefer to say lower on the protien side, I like it under 30 but don't worry too much since I regularly rotate flavors.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Shelly, it's my understanding (an again, not a nutritionist) that "moderate" protein is no higher than 25%. That's what Bailey's breeder recommended. The regular Fromm Four Star formulas are all around that. Salmon is 25%, Duck 24%, and so on.

Salmon À La Veg dog food - Fromm Family Foods

Duck & Sweet Potato dog food - Fromm Family Foods

It is my understanding that high protein kibble is notorious for causing dehydration.

"Pets eating a protein-based diet do just fine as long as it contains 70 to 80 percent moisture. But when you take moisture out of high protein foods, they become difficult for your pet’s body to process because of the dehydration factor."

Pet Food Mistake that Could Destroy Their Kidney and Liver

I agree with Dr. Becker that if you choose to feed more protein, whole, unprocessed foods are much safer. That is the argument for homecooking and raw IMO.
 

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Shelly, it's my understanding (an again, not a nutritionist) that "moderate" protein is no higher than 25%. That's what Bailey's breeder recommended. The regular Fromm Four Star formulas are all around that. Salmon is 25%, Duck 24%, and so on.

Salmon À La Veg dog food - Fromm Family Foods

Duck & Sweet Potato dog food - Fromm Family Foods

It is my understanding that high protein kibble is notorious for causing dehydration.

"Pets eating a protein-based diet do just fine as long as it contains 70 to 80 percent moisture. But when you take moisture out of high protein foods, they become difficult for your pet’s body to process because of the dehydration factor."

Pet Food Mistake that Could Destroy Their Kidney and Liver

I agree with Dr. Becker that if you choose to feed more protein, whole, unprocessed foods are much safer. That is the argument for homecooking and raw IMO.
Yea when you posted that it started to make me wonder maybe the dehydration was coming from being on 30% protien at the time.
 

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I think if you take moisture out of ANY food or diet that goes uncompensated by a lack of increase in free water intake, that is how a dog or human gets dehydrated. It's not only the higher protein foods- its all dry foods; it's the reason why Dr. Becker supports raw and homemade over dry kibble. The body regulates hydration status very tightly by the kidneys and various hormones. It is mainly comprised of sodium and water balance. That regulation has very little to do with protein content. A person or dog can have low, normal, or high levels of protein While being dehydrated. It's not high protein kibble that causes dehydration per se, it's the fact that it's dry kibble with low moisture content. The solution to dehydration is to provide more moisture and water, not adjust the protein level.

I do feed Fromm kibble (both grain incusive and grain free flavors just for more variety) but I give free access to water all day and Obi is a pretty good drinker. I think it's important to have free access to water especially if on kibble.

I would want to home cook in the future but I'd seek a nutritionist beforehand because I'm afraid of unbalanced diets no matter the source!
 

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Thanks, Marj! Good article! The domesticated dog is truly not a carnivore..as stated in the article and is absolutely "right on" when it comes to nutrition for dogs. Pet food companies would have us think that we should feed them high protein, high fat, and very few carbs like their "ancestors". Remember SMers,
pet food companies sell pet food to people and they are hotly competing for your business. :thumbsup:
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Thanks, Marj! Good article! The domesticated dog is truly not a carnivore..as stated in the article and is absolutely "right on" when it comes to nutrition for dogs. Pet food companies would have us think that we should feed them high protein, high fat, and very few carbs like their "ancestors". Remember SMers,
pet food companies sell pet food to people and they are hotly competing for your business. :thumbsup:
Great reminder, April! :thumbsup:
 

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Marisa you should totally get Dr. Beckers book, I made some posts about it it is absolutely wonderful :)

About the whole carnivore thing, I find it really interesting. So, if dogs are omnivores, don't they lack certain types of teeth for that? I'm not arguing, I'm genuinly curious.

I have read about their being different kinds of carnivores-like oppertunistic, and honestly I believe that's what the modern dog falls in. I though, don't KNOW this to be true, it's just with what I've read, it makes sense to me. I do think they are carnivores, I just don't think the kind that can be just thrown guts and meat and it works out to be 100% nutritionally balanced.

I found this article interesting:
Prey model vs. BARF feeding for dogs

I really wanted to find something more credible, from one of the major universities or some study but I couldn't find anything.

A second article on different types of carnivores:
http://anitalumley.hubpages.com/hub/Are-Dogs-Carnivores-or-Omnivores
 

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Interesting article. I personally don't agree with it though. I am not a nutritionist, but carefully watched how diets affected my girls. They both do much better grain free. There is a ton of fiber and nutrients in vegetables. They have perfect poo, pretty much all the time. Not only have the girls been grain free for over a year, but I too switched to grain free 3 months ago. I have honestly never felt better in my life. There is a huge debate going on in the nutritionist/food industry and I am firmly on the no grain side ;) doesn't mean that works for everyone though, we are all different.

I need to amend after reading again, because it is also comparing the starchy veg. to the starch grain. This is believe, is the problem of finding cheap fillers to the food. We don't have either of those, just non starch vegetables and fruit. All fillers do IMO is to degrade the quality of the food.
 

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Grace needs grains and does well on them (her diet has to be low protein)...

Gus on the other hand, does best grain-free. If he is going to have a grain it is Rice or Oats, but I have to feed them to him separate (away from his protein).
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Grace needs grains and does well on them (her diet has to be low protein)...

Gus on the other hand, does best grain-free. If he is going to have a grain it is Rice or Oats, but I have to feed them to him separate (away from his protein).
Lady did great on oats! With all her health issues (diabetes, epilepsy and liver disease from anti-seizure meds just to mention a few :w00t:), she needed high fiber, complex carbs, but had trouble digesting rice, barley, etc. Even with probiotics, they came out looking just the same as they went in. TMI!
 

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Lady did great on oats! With all her health issues (diabetes, epilepsy and liver disease from anti-seizure meds just to mention a few :w00t:), she needed high fiber, complex carbs, but had trouble digesting rice, barley, etc. Even with probiotics, they came out looking just the same as they went in. TMI!
Hahah... Thanks, Marj for the visual ;). I love the TMI subjects here. I haven't tried oats but that's a great idea. Obi goes crazy for brown rice but, luckily, I don't see it in the poo :-D I'm going to see if he likes oats too! thankfully, he doesn't have any allergies that I've noticed so I do like to give him some veggies and certain grains.


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I am going to try the grain variety Fromm next time. Steve has to have his glands expressed by the vet every 6 weeks, maybe some extra fiber will help with that. But he may just be one that needs it done for him regardless. Lucky Steve!
 
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