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I thought I'd start this topic for our new member maltsmom because of her experience with another forum.


So the question is... if your maltese is above the standard, does that mean your breeder was a bad breeder???

Kodie is tooooo small.... I have been told from a vet that his breeder is a BADD breeder...


I would love to hear everyones views!
 

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I don't think so... One turns out bigger and one turns our smaller.. How would a breeder know. I belive they do there best to have a show quallity dog and if not then they become pets. Don't quote me I'm no expert and have not experience in breeding.
But at least that is what our breeder has told us.. She is able to pick out of her litter whith one would be a show dog... I think that is so cool to have an eye like that.

Anyway i think Kodie is gorgeous.... My husban alway comment on his picture... so sweet.
 

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Originally posted by Nichole@Feb 11 2005, 04:38 PM
This is just my opinion, but I don't believe having a small or large dog necessarily makes a bad breeder.  If the dog in question happens to be a "fluke of nature" and the other dogs in the litter were of reasonable size, then it is just an oddity of nature.  Now, in my opinion, what makes a bad breeder, is someone who purposely breeds two tiny dogs together, with no regard for the welfare of the mother or the pups, just to sell the litter as a "teacup," then yes, they are a bad breeder.  Same with someone who breeds two larger dogs--they are breeding outside of breed standards and producing dogs that are not of "quality," for lack of a better word.
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I agree... sometimes an unusually small dog or large one can come out of a dam and sire who normally produce within standard... When I was looking for my 2nd Maltese, I spoke with one of the top breeders who had a little girl that would get no larger than 3 pounds... that is very small and below standard and I don't think there is anyone who thinks she is a bad breeder... and of course she isn't. Sometimes, these flukes happen. It is when it is done on purpose that the breeder could be considered "bad".
 

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I dont think there are just good breeders and bad breeders lol lots and lots of levels of breeders! Like i think people who breed 2 champion dogs and end up with a litter that is almost all totally in standered puppies are awsome breeders, and i wish i could have affored a puppy from a breeder like that. On the other hand i think someone who takes 2 dogs dosnt bother making sure both dogs and nice and healthy just breedes some puppies is a pretty bad breeder, get what i mean? like my sunny didnt come from a super breeder and he is totatlly out of standered size wise, so were both his parents, but the women who was breeding the dog honestly cared about her dog and the puppies took the mom to the vet all the time making sure everyone was doing ok i think my sunny came from a alright breeder
 

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Originally posted by Lilly521@Feb 11 2005, 07:46 PM
I dont think there are just good breeders and bad breeders lol lots and lots of levels of breeders!  Like i think people who breed 2 champion dogs and end up with a litter that is almost all totally in standered puppies are awsome breeders, and i wish i could have affored a puppy from a breeder like that.  On the other hand i think someone who takes 2 dogs dosnt bother making sure both dogs and nice and healthy just breedes some puppies is a pretty bad breeder, get what i mean? like my sunny didnt come from a super breeder and he is totatlly out of standered size wise, so were both his parents, but the women who was breeding the dog honestly cared about her dog and the puppies took the mom to the vet all the time making sure everyone was doing ok i think my sunny came from a alright breeder
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Very well said. To be so young, you sure do have a good head on your shoulders!
 

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I think the standard is just a guideline. However, being smaller than the standard, I think, is not healthy. I think of "teacups" as premature babies. And even in humans, premature babies, as they grow, arent quite as healthy as if they werent premature.

I think breeders have alot of responsibility. I think a breeder should be ethical enough to choose the health of their dog to be their priority no matter the size. I think breeders should have a grasp of knowledge about genetics and the breed. The life of the dog is in their hands. If it's not something the buyer is expecting, where do you think they poor thing may go? The stinkin shelter!

I also think that the parents (us) of the dogs should be given as much info on the breed as possible. I sorta resent my breeder for not telling me how to keep Cloud's knees as healthy as possible (like telling me to try not to let them go up and down the stairs for a yr). I found that out here.

Cloud is SUPPOSE to be 7 lbs or less but he's 11 lbs. *rolling my eyes* But I love him to death. I dont care about the standards though. I love Noriko to death, but I can squeeze Cloud more tightly because he's bigger. LOL I wouldnt change his size at all! I really love him this way.

I'm just rambling. I just took 2 tests this week and I'm so pooped. I'm totally delirious. Who cares what I think? PUAHAHA
 

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I have to agree...most breeders are trying to breed within the standard. Lacey is 8 pounds. My breeder told me that Lacey would be a larger maltese and if I wanted a little one then I should take Lacey's sister or brother. I said no way! Lacey is a wonderful little dog. Is she show quality? No, but she is beautiful and I couldn't have asked for a better baby. I would run as fast as I could from a breeder that is trying to breed tiny dogs. My breeder told me that she breeds and tries to get a show dog. If there are no show dogs then she sells them. She has wonderful dogs. Both of Lacey's parents are just beautiful and both are show dogs. You would think if both of the parents are show dogs and the grandparents are show you should get a puppy that is within the standard. Just goes to show you that you never know what is going to happen.
 

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Breeders try very hard to breed within the ideal of the standard (4-6 lbs). Of course, genetics don't always like to work nicely. Most breeders do get to know their lines and how quickly their dogs mature so can give decent estimates of adult size (including dogs that will be oversize).

Any breeder purposefully breeding undersized or oversized dogs I would find questionable. Teacup is a selling term. There is no such thing. Many undersized dogs have a myriad of health problems.

Personally, I like a dog in the 6 lb range. I want my dog to have some substance.

So, it all depends on the circumstances. Undersized and oversized dogs do happen, but there is a lot more to whether or not a breeder is reputable and responsible than just whether or not those sizes have been produced by them. Their motives are usually a good sign as to whether or not they are reputable.
 

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My "hobby" breeder had 4 dogs (2 males, 2 females). They were all 4 the same size. Alex was the last of one litter and the last to go. The breeder did not advertise him as a teacup. When I called she only said he is small. Alex was 10 weeks old. She had another litter 5 weeks old and she showed me the puppies to see the difference. At 5 weeks they were almost as big as Alex at 10. She asked me if I had kids and was happy when I said no. She was concerned because of his small size and kids. Fully grown, Alex stays between 5.8 and 6.0 lbs.
 

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Thanks Kallie/Catcher's Mom! I just couldnt imagine putting every breeder who dosnt breed champion dogs into the 'bad breeder' catigory.

Cloud is SUPPOSE to be 7 lbs or less but he's 11 lbs. *rolling my eyes* But I love him to death. I dont care about the standards though. I love Noriko to death, but I can squeeze Cloud more tightly because he's bigger. LOL I wouldnt change his size at all! I really love him this way.[/B]
One thing that made me feel ok about getting a big maltese is that it was made clear to me from the beginning not to expect a tiny dog, i love the size sunny is but if someone had told me he was gonna be around 7lbs i would proubly be a little disapointed (although still adore) my 10lbs baby
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Just so everyone knows.. Kodie's breeder intentionally bred kodie's mom which was 3.5lbs with a male that was 2lbs. The result... a dead pup at birth... a girl pup that had many many health probs and died at 6months old... and kodie survived. He's 3.2lbs and going to be 2yrs old in april. He very very tiny boned
(I was just at the breeders house last night and saw their little girl that was 4lbs and she isnt even as boney as kodie.) and has his own health issues because of the small breeding.
Now with that bit of info... what does everyone think of my breeder? They were not worried about the health of the pups from what i see... occurring to our vet the lady just wanted tiny pups and didnt care or even think about the health concerns involved.
 

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Originally posted by Kodie@Feb 11 2005, 11:00 PM
Just so everyone knows.. Kodie's breeder intentionally bred kodie's mom which was 3.5lbs with a male that was 2lbs.  The result... a dead pup at birth... a girl pup that had many many health probs and died at 6months old... and kodie survived.  He's 3.2lbs and going to be 2yrs old in april.  He very very tiny boned
(I was just at the breeders house last night and saw their little girl that was 4lbs and she isnt even as boney as kodie.) and has his own health issues because of the small breeding. 
Now with that bit of info... what does everyone think of my breeder?  They were not worried about the health of the pups from what i see... occurring to our vet the lady just wanted tiny pups and didnt care or even think about the health concerns involved.
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Oh my gosh!!! :eek: You could almost say that breeding a 2 lb male and 3.5 lb. female is animal abuse.
 

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I agree with Kallie/Catcher's Mom 100%. I too think breeding two small dogs that small is a total animal abuse.
 

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Xena is just the same as Lacey'sMom's dog! Both mom & dad were champion dogs & Xena did well until she finished growing -ending up at 8 lbs. Her breeder stopped showing her then. Xena had less than 5 lb pups, too (3-4 litters of one pup each). Good breeders have dogs that can be a bit above or below the standard, but they do tend to be healthier pups that are otherwise within standard, imo! That's genetics for you!

Kodie's breeder, imo, was not a good breeder to breed such small pups on purpose. I'm so glad Kodie is okay!

Deanne
 

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Their motives are usually a good sign as to whether or not they are reputable.[/B]
I have to agree with this statement. It's not the outcome so much as the intention that makes a good or bad breeder. While researching breeders I was told that if a breeder guarantees you the adult size of your maltese that you should avoid them because no reputable breeder will promise you an adult weight. To judge a breeder on the outcome of one puppy is like judging whether a parent of a handicapped child is a bad parent. I understand it's not the same thing, but genetics do play a large part. I feel my breeder was a good breeder because she was very helpful, she had guidelines who could adopt her puppies, she wasn't in it for the money and she clearly put her heart into her hobby. Does this make her a backyard breeder? Does it matter in this case? I don't think so.
 

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I agree with everyone that breeders who purposely bred with disregard to the standard are not good breeders. Nature sometimes throws curves, but a good breeder should be able to address most issues in their lines. As pets, we should all love our dogs no matter what their backgrounds.
 

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I will say that there are very few breeders who do not show that I consider reputable. Those that I do are older and retired from showing but sell to show homes where a representative sample of their breeding continues to be shown. Dog shows are about having numerous different opinions on how well the dog conforms to the standard. Even the top breeders show their dogs to ensure that they continue to breed to the standard. Not showing is usually an indication of a questionable breeder. The ONLY reason to breed is to IMPROVE the breed. If your dogs are not up to the standard then you can't do that and you certainly can't produce the standard. It isn't about being snooty...the standard is what makes a Maltese a Maltese! What drew us to them...their distinctive look and attitude.
 

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Originally posted by JMM@Feb 12 2005, 03:43 PM
The ONLY reason to breed is to IMPROVE the breed. <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=35049
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Sorry Jackie but I don't agree with that statement. If the breeders would breed only for shows, they would not make much money. And not many people would be able to get a pet. If they would not have done all that inbreeding to so called "improve the breed", all those pure breed dogs would be healthier. I am not a fan of dog shows. I compare them to the child beauty pageants. They should not breed to "improve" the standard, they should breed to "improve" the HEALTH of the dog. Most people don't care if their pet is up to standard, all they want is a loving and healthy pet. How can the show people say they love their dogs when they raise them to go to shows so they can breed them and once they cannot breed them anylonger they give them away for a pet to somebody else ?
 

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Originally posted by MalteseJane+Feb 12 2005, 11:47 PM-->
<!--QuoteBegin-JMM
@Feb 12 2005, 03:43 PM
The ONLY reason to breed is to IMPROVE the breed. <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=35049
Sorry Jackie but I don't agree with that statement. If the breeders would breed only for shows, they would not make much money. And not many people would be able to get a pet. If they would not have done all that inbreeding to so called "improve the breed", all those pure breed dogs would be healthier. I am not a fan of dog shows. I compare them to the child beauty pageants. They should not breed to "improve" the standard, they should breed to "improve" the HEALTH of the dog. Most people don't care if their pet is up to standard, all they want is a loving and healthy pet. How can the show people say they love their dogs when they raise them to go to shows so they can breed them and once they cannot breed them anylonger they give them away for a pet to somebody else ?
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Janine, too much inbreeding is a problem in mills, BYBs, and show breeders. There are some breeders who do way too much of it. To keep the genetic health of the breed, outcrosses are very important. How many BYBers have semen shipped across the country for a good outcross consider health, conformation, temperament, etc? I doubt any of them.

Breeding to improve the breed does not only take into account the standard, but also temperament and health. The standard is set and it is what makes a Maltese a Maltese. If we throw that out the window, then there wouldn't be any purebred dogs at all.

Some show people certainly are not the best. Showing itself does not equal a good breeder, but for me, not showing a representative sample of breeding stock is a big red light. Even show dogs who are sent out with handlers are loved and missed by their owners. However, the handlers they use are usually wonderful with the dogs and adore them. Most breeders are very attached to their dogs and they do end up keeping a number of their retired dogs and bitches at home. The ones they place are ones they feel would be happier as the only dog or maybe with only 1-2 other dogs. What do mills do when a bitch is done breeding? Auction her off or let her die...if they're nice, they euthanize her.

I did not have a good impression of the "show world" until I started going to shows and got to know some good breeders. Sure, there are politics, but there are also judges who really know there stuff and will point out your dogs faults and strengths. Nothing is perfect, but at least making an attempt to utilize the tools available to produce a Maltese that holds the essential characteristics of the breed is important to me as a Maltese lover. I adored my first dog, a Maltese Bichon mix from a small mill, but I also love the Maltese look and she sure did not have that (large, curly-haired, prominent muzzle, flat top skull, long in the back). If a BYB doesn't learn about structure, genetics, etc. which is all part of showing dogs, then what will a Maltese look like in 30 years?
 
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