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QUOTE (JMM @ Jul 17 2008, 06:47 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=606645
QUOTE (Clabec Maltese @ Jul 17 2008, 12:55 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=606600
Now I have a question. Mary, Tina, maybe one of you or someone can answer this. He was producing those crystals for a reason. He showed every sign of a shunt. If he did have the shunt and would have had the surgery wouldn't the crystals have stopped forming and he would have had the padding around his disk that the crystals had taken away? Or am I way off base here on this. I don't know. I guess I just really want answers. And I probably will never get any.

Sorry guys for taking up so much time. I do want to say this before I end this post. All Breeders do things for certain reasons. I test my dogs and take top care of my dogs because I do not want to produce another baby that has to go through what my Ezekiel did and I do not want a innocent loving family suffer the way I still suffer to this day.

OK again I am sorry for taking up so much time.[/B]
If he was a candidate for surgical correction and it was successful then yes, it should stop the crystal formation. Often times medical management can help reduce these problems as well for dogs who are not candidates for surgery. Each case is individual.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Thank you for the reply Jacki.
 

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QUOTE (Malteseluv @ Sep 27 2007, 09:02 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=444090
Yes, thank you for posting this information. Do not waste your money on idexx snap...Get a regular serum bile acid test (pre-prandial and post-prandial). The dog is fasted overnight for 12 hours, taken in for a blood draw. They feed the dog, then 2 hrs later take another blood draw.
As far as liver shunts and MVD goes. Most dogs who have liver shunt are diagnosed by the age of 1, but I have seen dogs much older than that be diagnosed, from 3-7 yrs old.
When they have MVD, many times, symptoms go unnoticed, so the dog may not be diagnosed until 2,3, or even much older than that...
Numbers above normal range but below 100, typically point more towards liver shunt.
Numbers above 100, typically point more towards MVD.
There are always exceptions to these "generalizations." I know of a yorkie whose numbers were under 100 and had a liver shunt, and I know several dogs, including my own, who have had number beyond 300 that have MVD.
MVD and liver shunts are usually congenital, but it is possible for a dog to have an "acquired" shunt later in life also.
About 15% of dogs who have liver shunt ligation surgery develop acquired shunts as well...[/B]
Hello,

I'm trying to understand the bile acid reading #s and am confushed by your example below. Could you please explain.

"Numbers above normal range but below 100, typically point more towards liver shunt.
Numbers above 100, typically point more towards MVD.

There are always exceptions to these "generalizations." I know of a yorkie whose numbers were under 100 and had a liver shunt, and I know several dogs, including my own, who have had number beyond 300 that have MVD."

Wouldn't the yorkie's and other examples follow the rule you gave and not be exceptions, if I'm understanding this right?

Thanks


:blink:
 

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QUOTE (MaryH @ Sep 27 2007, 04:54 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=444045
For any of you who may be thinking of running a bile acid test on your dog(s), there is a new test out, the IDEXX SNAP test for bile acids. Don't waste your money!! While you will get both pre- and postprandial values, the values are given in ranges -- <12; 12-25; >25. You might get a postprandial value of >25 but the test does not tell you how much greater than 25. And there's a huge difference between 26 and 200 but because all you get is >25, you've just spent good money for a worthless result and now you've got to spend more money to have a traditional bile acid test run to get a meaningful value. This may well be a worthwhile test for breeds that do not have liver issues but it is NOT a good test for Maltese.

Mary[/B]
So does that mean that we shouldn't do the bile acid test or not the IDEXX SNAP test? My vet said that we should do the bile acid test because my dog Twinkie is so tiny (1.6 pounds) and it's a good idea for him to get that test. Thank you for the understanding B) !!!
 

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QUOTE (TwinkieMom @ Oct 23 2008, 09:00 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=656729
So does that mean that we shouldn't do the bile acid test or not the IDEXX SNAP test? My vet said that we should do the bile acid test because my dog Twinkie is so tiny (1.6 pounds) and it's a good idea for him to get that test. Thank you for the understanding B) !!![/B]
DO NOT DO THE SNAP TEST.

You want to do a bile acid assay with pre- and post-prandial samples sent to a lab.
 

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QUOTE (JMM @ Oct 23 2008, 07:05 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=656733
QUOTE (TwinkieMom @ Oct 23 2008, 09:00 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=656729
So does that mean that we shouldn't do the bile acid test or not the IDEXX SNAP test? My vet said that we should do the bile acid test because my dog Twinkie is so tiny (1.6 pounds) and it's a good idea for him to get that test. Thank you for the understanding B) !!![/B]
DO NOT DO THE SNAP TEST.

You want to do a bile acid assay with pre- and post-prandial samples sent to a lab.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Thank you soooo much! i didnt really know what the bile test really is. Our vet said that we had to drop Twinkie off and then they will feed him and 2 hours later, they will look at some kind of results and again feed him. I was confused! is this really the Bile Acid Test?
 

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QUOTE (TwinkieMom @ Oct 23 2008, 09:13 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=656739
QUOTE (JMM @ Oct 23 2008, 07:05 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=656733
QUOTE (TwinkieMom @ Oct 23 2008, 09:00 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=656729
So does that mean that we shouldn't do the bile acid test or not the IDEXX SNAP test? My vet said that we should do the bile acid test because my dog Twinkie is so tiny (1.6 pounds) and it's a good idea for him to get that test. Thank you for the understanding B) !!![/B]
DO NOT DO THE SNAP TEST.

You want to do a bile acid assay with pre- and post-prandial samples sent to a lab.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Thank you soooo much! i didnt really know what the bile test really is. Our vet said that we had to drop Twinkie off and then they will feed him and 2 hours later, they will look at some kind of results and again feed him. I was confused! is this really the Bile Acid Test?
[/B][/QUOTE]

I have a Maltese puppy who is five months and 2 lbs. 13 oz- she has MVD- you can read up on all my stuff but she's doing great!
 

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QUOTE (MaryH @ Sep 30 2007, 10:34 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=445847
Yes, thank you for posting this information. Do not waste your money on idexx snap...Get a regular serum bile acid test (pre-prandial and post-prandial). The dog is fasted overnight for 12 hours, taken in for a blood draw. They feed the dog, then 2 hrs later take another blood draw.[/B]
This information is outdated. The bile acid test was developed at Cornell by Dr. Center. They wrote the initial protocol and have since updated it. Taken from Page 5 of the handout Dr. Center gave us at her recent seminar:
"7. Random "Fasting" Bile Acids ARE NOT reliable for RULING OUT liver dysfunction or abnormal portal circulation. Rather, you need PAIRED SAMPLES AROUND A MEAL. We no longer collect 12-hr fasting bile acids but instead collect a bile acid sample before a meal (pre-meal) and 2 hours after a meal (post-meal or postprandial)." (all emphasis was added by Dr. Center, not me)

QUOTE
Numbers above normal range but below 100, typically point more towards liver shunt.
Numbers above 100, typically point more towards MVD.[/B]
I believe you have your numbers backwards in this statement.

QUOTE
If your dog is asymptomatic and comes up with slightly elevated BAT results, then I think the test should be redone in 30 days. I don't see anything wrong with redoing a bile acid test in that fashion.[/B]
Quoting from p.17 of our handout:
"3. Dogs with MVD are monitored with serial biochemical profiles looking for evidence of active hepatobiliary injury (increased liver enzyme activity) or loss of synthetic function as part of their routine health assessments over their lifetime. Serial bile acid values do not contribute to assessments of health status in these dogs unless they become profoundly increased. Bile acid values do not quantitatively correlate with extent of liver injury due to their complex physiologic regulation. Dogs with MVD usually do not have ammonium biurate crystalluria or hyperammonemia." (all emphasis was added by Dr. Center)

In closing, I personally know two Maltese, one with a ligated shunt and the other with MVD, who are living in pet homes and have Dr. Center as their "regular" vet. Both were initially seen, tested, and diagnosed by Dr. Center, and the one with the shunt had the shunt ligated by a surgical team at Cornell under the watchful eye of Dr. Center. Neither of these dogs has been subjected to repeat bile acid testing. They have complete blood panels done at the time of their wellness exams to monitor liver enzyme levels. And Dr. Center advised all who attended her seminar that repeat bile acid testing is of no use in monitoring MVD dogs.

Mary
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How did your friends dog with mvd do? My maltese is around 14 months old and was diagnosed with mvd around 7 months old. She had a elevated ATL so they did bile acid test that came back abnormal so I took her to Auburn University Vet School and they did test and couldn't find anything so they spayed her and took a liver biopsy and that is when the found it. She eat Science Diet L/D and hasn't ever shown any signs of liver problems. Blood work is perfect now ever time we test it.
 

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my dee dee has mvd and is doing fine -- her pre and post were post only first 73.1, then pre 3 and post 54.9, and then on low protein diet purina ha pre 3.9 and post 27.4 - she is even on temarilp which affects liver and is fine and blood work normal including ALT but bile acids were high
 

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QUOTE (tamizami @ Jul 14 2008, 07:07 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=605290
QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Jul 14 2008, 02:16 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=605275
QUOTE (Lori @ Jul 14 2008, 05:11 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=605269
After reading this thread, I'm a little confused as to whether or not you should insist on a bile liver test BEFORE bringing your puppy home. Can somebody clear this up for me? I have been in touch with Bea Ane's Maltese and when I asked her if she did this test, she told me that she doesn't need to because her dogs are healthy and she wouldn't sell a sick pup.

Thanks.[/B]

I would ask that the bile acid test be done before I purchased the puppy. No one can tell whether a puppy has a liver shunt or MVD unless the dog is tested, no matter how healthy the line seems to be.
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I also agree with this and BrookeB676. As JMM pointed out a few posts earlier, a simple blood chemistry panel may show normal ALT levels even if the dog has MVD/shunt. MVD does not necessarily mean a "sick pup", either. Many of them lead normal, asymptomatic lives well into their teens. Its estimated by Dr. Center that approximately 60% of maltese have MVD. JMM posted the reasons its important to have a baseline test while your pup is young (before you bring them home preferably) in this thread or another. The goal is to identify liver shunt before getting a puppy and the bile acid test along with protein c is the only way to inexpensively rule out liver shunt.

I hope that helps clear it up.
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If a test was not done as a puppy, it is recommended to get it done sooner than later . Jodi is 2 years old (has no problems) but should I ask for the bile acid test so I have baseline information if needed in the future ?
 

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QUOTE (JMM @ May 12 2009, 10:42 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=775070
Yes, I think it is a good idea to get a baseline. That way if your dog gets sick later on, the vet won't find the results alarming if you already know the dog has MVD numbers. Its a good way to avoid unnecessary procedures later in life.[/B]

Thanks, I'll ask for it. BTW, what does MVD mean?
 

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Microvascular dysplasia also known as HMD as it gets confused with heart disease mvd alot

http://www.yorkieangelpatrol.com/mvd.htm


QUOTE (Maglily @ May 12 2009, 09:19 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=775091
QUOTE (JMM @ May 12 2009, 10:42 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=775070
Yes, I think it is a good idea to get a baseline. That way if your dog gets sick later on, the vet won't find the results alarming if you already know the dog has MVD numbers. Its a good way to avoid unnecessary procedures later in life.[/B]

Thanks, I'll ask for it. BTW, what does MVD mean?
[/B][/QUOTE]
 

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Jodi got his booster vaccines today, and I arranged a bile acid test for next week, just to get the baseline #'s.

With re to teeth, he doesn't have much tartar, just a small amount , thankfully nothing alarming but I did get some toothpaste (CET ) and some dental chew samples (with enzymes) , one is a CET product, one is Medi-cal. For other dental treats I was given some very large pieces of Medi-cal dental and T/D small bites (which i think is a Hills product - I think a no no to most here).

Are these good choices for chews ?

And just to boot, Jodi is 1 lb heavier than last year....he is 9.6 lbs vs. last years 8.6 lbs. I swithched the scale to kg...and he was an even 4 kg. (but we don't have to go there haha). I have to watch his weight he is at his max.
 

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the cet chews have chlorhexedine in them which helps keep bacteria down in mouth - make sure vet dental products do not have sorbitol in them as some do and that is not good for dogs - brushing is the best -- i use gauze around a cotton swab as best for small mouths and cet enzymatic tooth paste chicken flavor as i think the vanilla mint has sorbitol in it


QUOTE (Maglily @ May 13 2009, 08:41 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=775984
Jodi got his booster vaccines today, and I arranged a bile acid test for next week, just to get the baseline #'s.

With re to teeth, he doesn't have much tartar, just a small amount , thankfully nothing alarming but I did get some toothpaste (CET ) and some dental chew samples (with enzymes) , one is a CET product, one is Medi-cal. For other dental treats I was given some very large pieces of Medi-cal dental and T/D small bites (which i think is a Hills product - I think a no no to most here).

Are these good choices for chews ?

And just to boot, Jodi is 1 lb heavier than last year....he is 9.6 lbs vs. last years 8.6 lbs. I swithched the scale to kg...and he was an even 4 kg. (but we don't have to go there haha). I have to watch his weight he is at his max.[/B]
 

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QUOTE (Dr.Jaimie @ Sep 28 2007, 10:50 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=444319
yes for those of u that havent run a bile acids on ur malt..i suggest u do so..... it will be interesting to see how many out there have a high BA and are not symptomatic. if ur malt does come back with a high BA i suggest u contact dr. center with ur bredder/ pedigree info to help her out in her research.[/B]
Please, who is Dr. Center. I am looking for help getting my service dog the liver shunt surgery.

I purchased a one year old Squaw Creek Kennels bred Maltese from Sportsman's Kennels on May 18, 2008 for a service dog. She came with 3 health certificates. In March 2009, I took her to be spayed. Blood work for anesthesia revealed 3 elevated liver enzymes. Bile acid tests were elevated and revealed her liver function is abnormal. These indicate either a portosystemic liver shunt or microvascular shunts, both Congenital Conditions that would be undiscoverable until symptomatic, without specific blood tests.

Several professionals believe that Pollyanna was sold and returned, and perhaps her condition was known, partly because the kennel only produced 4 months of vet records ending in September 2007 for a year of residence. They also sold her for less than half the original asking price.

I went out to Sportsmans Kennels on Friday with Pollyanna to ask them to pay the $1800 diagnostic fees and $3000 surgery fees I was quoted. Helen, the owner, told me I was legally entitled to nothing because of the Lemon Law that protects the Kennel after 2 weeks. After 2 hours discussion, Helen, said she would pay for the portogram and necessary surgery. She reiterated this over and over.

On Monday, I called my vet and told him Sportsmans Kennels had assured me she would pay for the care. He called Helen and she shouted him down and told him that she had reconsidered and would not honor her verbal commitment to me.

She called me the next night yelling. She said her vets said it was "overkill" to treat this dog. She said that the dog is too small and will die in surgery. She said she would give me $1300 for the dog, I could keep her but don't treat her, and a puppy: because Pollyanna “would have a short life and I could train the puppy to be a service dog and then when Pollyanna dies you well not feel bad.” I told her Pollyanna could be saved if I had the money. She said I was entitled to nothing; she said her vets said it was probably just an infection. I told her that her Web site claims a 2 year Genetic Guarantee and she said that only reimburses the price of the dog. . I told her I would contact Squaw Creek Kennels if she didn't feel it was her responsibility, and she warned me not to contact "Ed", "If you call Ed, you are done with me."

My vet sent all the blood work to her vets by Friday. On Saturday she called me and told me she had no legal obligation. I reminded her repeatedly that she had made a verbal contract with me to pay the portagram and the surgery. She said she never said she would do the right thing. "I don't talk like that." She was furious. She said her vets said it could be 100 things and was most likely a bacterial infection. She said I lied when I said the dog was going to die, and that I committed slander against her. I said that is what I was told.

After insisting that she would not pay, she said she wanted the dog on antibiotics for one week and then wanted the blood work (which was done twice) redone by her vets. She said she wanted the sonogram and portogram by her vets. I said, by somebody impartial, and she said no, her people. She was supposed to call on Monday but never called.

Since my dog is getting worse and since my vet and blood work say she does not have an infection, I decided to borrow the money and have a sonogram done. Unfortunately, the sonogram (only 25% reliable to reveal a shunt but necessary to see if the other organs are normal. The portogram is 100% reliable and more expensive.) showed that Pollyanna has an "extra vessel" which could be a true shunt or a vessel caused by microshunts. A portagram will specify. Her liver is normal size on the right and extra small on the left.

Read "Puppy Mill Probe .." on Topix. http://www.topix.com/forum/city/east-north...PGKDT0GOJ2F6O03
 
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