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Discussion Starter #1
I don't understand how a byb can get champion blood lines. There is a local byb who boasts champion blood lines, even stating her one sire is Grand-Champion sired from the #9 Maltese in the Nation in 2003. How does this happen? Who did she get him from? How do you go about finding out who this supposed grand-champion was? It's very frustrating to me because she's a groomer at a vets office and even fosters for a local dog rescue that I don't support any longer because not only does she foster for them, but another byb friend of hers that she does stud service for fosters as well. Her website boasts of perfect babydoll faces which they DON'T have, and I've seen 2 male puppies that was sired by her boy that was placed at 10 weeks. One weighs almost 7 lbs at 4 months and the other is even bigger. And the one is already hopping when I watch him run and play.
 

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Since the original thread has been deleted, perhaps we should just drop the whole issue.
 

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Since the original thread has been deleted, perhaps we should just drop the whole issue.
Huh? I'm asking about a lady who comes into my store and lives near me. I've been wanting to know how she got her sire...or how other byb's get dogs with supposed champion blood lines. The thread you are referring to, the lady lives several states away from me.

Is this a taboo to ask? :huh:
 

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Crystal -- Years ago, I sold a show puppy (Lhasa) to a person in the Phoenix area. She had been visiting with me for almost 2 years before I had a litter where a puppy was available. I thought I was mentoring her for the show ring. She took the puppy at 6 months and the contract was for her to show the puppy and also for me to remain as co-owner on the female until she was finished.

In the meantime, I was relocated for work. The new owner called one of my Lhasa friends in Phoenix and asked if she could breed to one of their champion males. She lied to the friend and told her that I had given permission and even that I had RECOMMENDED that she call. She told the friend that she had been unable to show the bitch because of some personal problems at the time, but that she definitely would be showing the puppies. Because I had recently moved and all of my phone numbers had changed, etc., the owner of the male was unable to get in touch with me.

The bitch was bred, the litter was born, and the owner forged my name on the litter registration.

I found out about it while at a dog show several months later. I had no idea that the bitch had even been bred. I contacted AKC and after several months, they ended up taking my name off the litter and off the bitch and banning the new owner from registering with AKC in the future. Of course, none of the puppies ever saw a show ring and the owner never had the intention of showing them.

I'm sure that she probably joined another registry but could legitimately say that her puppies were sired by a top winning Lhasa Champion and that Gambler (who was #1 for 4 years) was their grandfather.

Because I was no longer in Phoenix, it was more difficult to know what was going on with this women and my bitch. I learned a big lesson from that one.

Just an FYI of my personal experience.
 

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Thanks Lynn for sharing your experience. I'm so sorry that happened to you. What a horrible situation! See my thinking is, I wonder if something similar may have happened here and this byb is using a certain breeder's name and pedigree and they don't even know it. And wouldn't they want to know it so they could register a complaint with the AKC?
 

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Lying and forging are not uncommon. The only way to prove it is a DNA test.
Years ago there were no closed papers and breeders had to trust the new owners.
Often they would send out friends to buy pups and then forge the sigs...or call AKC saying they lost the papers, etc. Some breeders gave papers and trusted they would spay/neuter.
 

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Lying and forging are not uncommon. The only way to prove it is a DNA test.
Years ago there were no closed papers and breeders had to trust the new owners.
Often they would send out friends to buy pups and then forge the sigs...or call AKC saying they lost the papers, etc. Some breeders gave papers and trusted they would spay/neuter.

:thumbsup: Yup!
 

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I found this question tonight, I know this is an old thread, but someone PMed me today asking a very similarly worded question and while it is true that unscrupulous people are not above forgery, there are also other ways that this sadly happens.

Most reputable breeders try hard to "protect" their lines from these BYBs, and they do so through clear contracts. But as most folks in the show world will say, the contract is only worth the ethics of those that sign it.

Remember that many of these BYB's are very good at the art of the con. They sound slick because they are slick. I know that some who are willing to help new people get started are often taken in by the claims of people who say they want to show and breed up. But we need to have someone out there willing to take a chance on new people, so it is a tough issue. Many breeders from famous lines have been burned enough that they do not share readily with newcomers. But if we do not have people willing to take the chance, where do the next generation of dedicated breeders come from?

Then of course there show breeders who are willing to sell their Champion or Non-champion breeding dogs to anyone with money. These people are not what we call ethical, but of course they exist.

And then as we know, not every person who shows does it for the right reasons either. Many times, they do it for a facade of respectability. This is why it is so important to go beyond the surface. Find out more than if the person shows, find out what their ethics are. Ask questions and dig deeper. Do not be fooled by "champion lines."
 

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I found this question tonight, I know this is an old thread, but someone PMed me today asking a very similarly worded question and while it is true that unscrupulous people are not above forgery, there are also other ways that this sadly happens.

Most reputable breeders try hard to "protect" their lines from these BYBs, and they do so through clear contracts. But as most folks in the show world will say, the contract is only worth the ethics of those that sign it.

Remember that many of these BYB's are very good at the art of the con. They sound slick because they are slick. I know that some who are willing to help new people get started are often taken in by the claims of people who say they want to show and breed up. But we need to have someone out there willing to take a chance on new people, so it is a tough issue. Many breeders from famous lines have been burned enough that they do not share readily with newcomers. But if we do not have people willing to take the chance, where do the next generation of dedicated breeders come from?

Then of course there show breeders who are willing to sell their Champion or Non-champion breeding dogs to anyone with money. These people are not what we call ethical, but of course they exist.

And then as we know, not every person who shows does it for the right reasons either. Many times, they do it for a facade of respectability. This is why it is so important to go beyond the surface. Find out more than if the person shows, find out what their ethics are. Ask questions and dig deeper. Do not be fooled by "champion lines."

Excellent and poignant thoughts :thumbsup: From a pet owner's perspective, it's important to dig deeper to find that "right" breeder for you even if that means waiting for the right puppy to come along.
 

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Excellent and poignant thoughts :thumbsup: From a pet owner's perspective, it's important to dig deeper to find that "right" breeder for you even if that means waiting for the right puppy to come along.

A Yorkie show breeder on another forum always advises newbies to "buy their breeder" first.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I found this question tonight, I know this is an old thread, but someone PMed me today asking a very similarly worded question and while it is true that unscrupulous people are not above forgery, there are also other ways that this sadly happens.

Most reputable breeders try hard to "protect" their lines from these BYBs, and they do so through clear contracts. But as most folks in the show world will say, the contract is only worth the ethics of those that sign it.

Remember that many of these BYB's are very good at the art of the con. They sound slick because they are slick. I know that some who are willing to help new people get started are often taken in by the claims of people who say they want to show and breed up. But we need to have someone out there willing to take a chance on new people, so it is a tough issue. Many breeders from famous lines have been burned enough that they do not share readily with newcomers. But if we do not have people willing to take the chance, where do the next generation of dedicated breeders come from?

Then of course there show breeders who are willing to sell their Champion or Non-champion breeding dogs to anyone with money. These people are not what we call ethical, but of course they exist.

And then as we know, not every person who shows does it for the right reasons either. Many times, they do it for a facade of respectability. This is why it is so important to go beyond the surface. Find out more than if the person shows, find out what their ethics are. Ask questions and dig deeper. Do not be fooled by "champion lines."
Excellent, EXCELLENT post Carina!
 

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Like all things involving money, there is always someone that will take the easy road. If your lucky enough to find this site before you buy, your ahead of the game already! I think the cute Maltese puppy cast a spell over you, and these byb's know they have that as an advantage with the buyer, then they toss in the CH lines and most people are goners before they know what hit them.

After what I went through with an in home breeder, I would ask one of the show breeders for their opinions before I bought a dog period, from anyone. They cannot guarantee your dog is going to be healthy, no one can. But they may share their opinions to help you chose a breeder that is well respected. It's all about cutting down on percentages of sickness, standard issues, temperament problems. And if your being told your paying for a dog that has champions in their lines, you deserve to know the truth about your pedigree. I have had several well respected show breeders I trust tell me when buying a puppy it's more about the reputation of a show breeder over time. So this is where having their expertise to guide you is so helpful.
 
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