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It means that we don't know if their dogs are of a lesser quality. They are never evaluated against other dogs in an unbiased situation. The idea is that people breed to improve the quality of the breed and finishing a dog is an indicator.

Showing can be very expensive but it doesn't always have to be. There are many dog shows and no matter where the person is, there will be one within driving distance. Dogs can be owner handled and not require a handler. It takes time to learn and perfect the grooming but when there is a will .. there is a way.

I do hope you get opinions from the other side. I am a pet owner who is starting to move into showing. I do not breed. I personally don't understand how some people live off their dogs. I don't want to be mean but most that breed and not show have no other source of income. They basically live off their dogs. I don't know how they do it because I sure can't....my furkids take a chunk of my pay check. I know a breeder who her and her husband have no job. They have been breeding for over 20 years ... if they aren't in it for profit ... I don't know what they are in it for.
 

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I am a small breeder too, but I never intended to be a breeder.(I don't like the word Breeder) I DON'T BREED FOR THE MONEY this is not the way I make my living. I do breed to improve the quality of my fur kidz even though I am not in the showing end of the dill. But I feel like I have some show quality dogs as well. I bought my first Maltese in 2000 an I fell so much in love with my first I had to have more. I wanted to bless other families with maltese at a reasonable price that a normal person like myself could afford. I have found out the hard way how dirty breeders are. I drove over 20 hrs to PA to purchase four show qualty so called dogs had laid over 2 gran in the ladies hand befor I got there plus laid more money in her hand these dogs I paid show quality prices for an got a good screwing let me tell you.(These dogs was not cheap an mine looked better then these as they got older I seen) was promised breeding rights an AKC papers(I never got papers at all on them) an I beleived this lady, boy was I fooled that women became the lady from H------- plus she stole two of my dogs that she was to sell for me that I took there cause she led me to beleive PA gets so much more $ for there dogs then Oklahoma well(I trusted this lady) I was screwed on that I never got a dime out of those two dogs ither.(I worry about my babies where they are at an if they are ok all the time) Made this lady over 13 dog dresses an over 20 dog beds an she did this to me I don't ever like to even say I am a breeder after the screwing I got from that lady. Later found out she is in a law suit now with other wrong doings I hope she gets all her dogs taken away from her she don't deserve one dog if she is treating others like this no way can she love her fur kidz to treat others like this.(this is her only income an if I had to treat people like this to make a living I would go get me a real job before I could do that I have a big heart an never could I treat people like she did me) People can call me a BYB so be it I am not in it for the money I am doing it cause these maltese has brought me so much happines an I want to share that to other families at a affordable price.( I have placed few babies at no charge cause I new they could not afford one an new I could see them all the time) None of my kids liive in cages all them live under our feet an it is a very clean inviroment these fur kidz are my human kidz they are my life. Sorry this was so long but it upsets me to hear B Y B I am not one of those sure there might be some that are but that is not myself. Just my exsperience I have had wanted to share!
Teaco
 

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I tell people that showing does not make a reputable breeder, but not showing is a red flag to find someone else.

A representative sample of the breeder's dogs should be shown to their championship to have other opinions about the dog's quality. Showing is all about evaluating for breeding quality. I know of a few older breeders who don't title their own dogs but sell a representative sample of the breeding program to people who do show. These are older people who have been in the breed for a number of years.

IMO, the only reason to breed it to improve the breed. If you are not showing and learning about structure, your sole opinion on the dog's quality doesn't mean a whole lot. I want multiple opinions and I want a breeder who understands what they are putting together and how it functions.
 

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Originally posted by Teaco@Apr 3 2005, 07:13 AM
I drove over 20 hrs to PA to purchase four show qualty so called dogs had laid over 2 gran in the ladies hand befor I...
Hi Teaco,
Wow...we are talking about the same woman. What a small world this is
I think I know who you are and I am pretty sure you figured out who I am since I don't hide my identity online. It is a terrible thing what happened to you. I hope the current situation resolves quickly and the other breeder gets her puppy back.

I would not consider someone who bred 1 litter with two show potentials a show breeder. They have yet to prove themselves (my humble opinion). In the past, I have been offered a puppy from them and I ran fast.
 

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I am a small breeder too, but I never intended to be a breeder.(I don't like the word Breeder) I DON'T BREED FOR THE MONEY this is not the way I make my living. I do breed to improve the quality of my fur kidz even though I am not in the showing end of the dill. But I feel like I have some show quality dogs as well. I bought my first Maltese in 2000 an I fell so much in love with my first I had to have more. I wanted to bless other families with maltese at a reasonable price that a normal person like myself could afford. I have found out the hard way how dirty breeders are. I drove over 20 hrs to PA to purchase four show qualty so called dogs had laid over 2 gran in the ladies hand befor I got there plus laid more money in her hand these dogs I paid show quality prices for an got a good screwing let me tell you.(These dogs was not cheap an mine looked better then these as they got older I seen) was promised breeding rights an AKC papers(I never got papers at all on them) an I beleived this lady, boy was I fooled that women became the lady from H-------

Teaco,
What age were the "show quality pups" you purchased from this lady? Also, who did the evaluation on them prior to your purchase?
 

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I am a small breeder too, but I never intended to be a breeder.(I don't like the word Breeder) I DON'T BREED FOR THE MONEY this is not the way I make my living. I do breed to improve the quality of my fur kidz even though I am not in the showing end of the dill. But I feel like I have some show quality dogs as well. I bought my first Maltese in 2000 an I fell so much in love with my first I had to have more. I wanted to bless other families with maltese at a reasonable price that a normal person like myself could afford. I have found out the hard way how dirty breeders are. I drove over 20 hrs to PA to purchase four show qualty so called dogs had laid over 2 gran in the ladies hand befor I got there plus laid more money in her hand these dogs I paid show quality prices for an got a good screwing let me tell you.(These dogs was not cheap an mine looked better then these as they got older I seen) was promised breeding rights an AKC papers(I never got papers at all on them) an I beleived this lady, boy was I fooled that women became the lady from H-------

Teaco,
What age were the "show quality pups" you purchased from this lady? Also, who did the evaluation on them prior to your purchase?
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They was about 14 wks old. As far as I new the evalution was done by the breeder and another lady that she used her stud. This breeder promised me AKC papers an breeding rights an I never got them called her an called her kept saying they was on the way nothing she got so ugly with me on the phone she as even much lied said she never had my two dogs I left I was taken for over 6 gran from this lady. I know in my heart I never got the 1600 dollar dog that she said I got like she said I was to get. I can't beleive breeders are this ugly an dishonest . I can't imagine treating anybody like she did me an as I have learned from others she has done this to other people. I have gotten allot wiser an not near as trusting when it comes to buying a maltese. I am one that had to learn the hard way an a very exspency lesson at that. Needless to say I love the dogs allot wouldn't take them back to that lady for all the money in China cause I could not place them in her hand to be baby making machines. Maybe someday who knows I might get into the show part of it but that will be sometime down the road. I have allot to learn about these maltese I dont' think a person can learn it all but I am the first to admitt I have learned allot after that ordeal that happened over a yr ago. I was about to give up but I had one lady that purchased one of my boys that said don't let people like that stand in in your way follow your dreams, and she would not of gotten her little son that brightens her life if I would of gave up. People like her kept my spirits up. I will never breed for the money I do it cause I love my fur kidz so much an only raise a few litters a yr. Nothing more beautiful then to see that little life coming in the world that is the best part of it.
I will end for now. Lesson well learned.
Teaco
 

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Originally posted by CharmyPoo+Apr 3 2005, 02:09 PM-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Teaco
@Apr 3 2005, 07:13 AM
I drove over 20 hrs to PA to purchase four show qualty so called dogs had laid over 2 gran in the ladies hand befor I...
Hi Teaco,
Wow...we are talking about the same woman. What a small world this is
I think I know who you are and I am pretty sure you figured out who I am since I don't hide my identity online. It is a terrible thing what happened to you. I hope the current situation resolves quickly and the other breeder gets her puppy back.

I would not consider someone who bred 1 litter with two show potentials a show breeder. They have yet to prove themselves (my humble opinion). In the past, I have been offered a puppy from them and I ran fast.
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YEs you figured me out, small world I think I do know who you are or I should say I have heard about you an all good. I hope an pray she gets her baby back soon very soon that lady don't deserve that puppy for nothing she is one sick women an sico lady. Charm, I have learned the hard way but I was not very educated when I purchase the four maltese but let me tell you didn't take me long after that to get my guards up never new breeders could be this dishonest people like that ruin the name breeder is so sad. No way could I make a living off selling dogs how sick when people do that an use them as baby machines. Those poor babies my heart goes out to them. I would die to own one of those babies from WV gosh why couldn't I met her first. Maybe someday I can that would be a dream come true. Even if it was not show quality would be wonderful not sure I have the time for showing just would love to go to one show in my life time that would be so exciting to see all those beautiful maltese. Take care an yes you picked me out who I am.
Teaco Nanny's babies
here is some of my babies not to bad for a BYB I didn't think
 

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Originally posted by CharmyPoo@Apr 3 2005, 03:36 AM
I personally don't understand how some people live off their dogs.  I don't want to be mean but most that breed and not show have no other source of income.  They basically live off their dogs.  I don't know how they do it because I sure can't....my furkids take a chunk of my pay check.  I know a breeder who her and her husband have no job.  They have been breeding for over 20 years ... if they aren't in it for profit ... I don't know what they are in it for.
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CharmyPoo,

I am just curious. Are you saying that no one should be making an income out of breeding or just not the people who don't show their dogs? Do most reputable breeders who show have outside jobs?
 

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Originally posted by okw+Apr 3 2005, 10:18 PM-->
<!--QuoteBegin-CharmyPoo
@Apr 3 2005, 03:36 AM
I personally don't understand how some people live off their dogs.  I don't want to be mean but most that breed and not show have no other source of income.  They basically live off their dogs.  I don't know how they do it because I sure can't....my furkids take a chunk of my pay check.  I know a breeder who her and her husband have no job.  They have been breeding for over 20 years ... if they aren't in it for profit ... I don't know what they are in it for.
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CharmyPoo,

I am just curious. Are you saying that no one should be making an income out of breeding or just not the people who don't show their dogs? Do most reputable breeders who show have outside jobs?
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There are some large volumn breeders who have so many pups that they don't work, but the majority of the people who show and breed their dogs have a job. I couldn't afford to do what I do if I didn't. I can't even see getting into the black in the next five years. The way I look at it is everyone needs a hobby, and mine is trying to raise my own show dogs and having them shown.
 

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I personally don't understand how some people live off their dogs.  I don't want to be mean but most that breed and not show have no other source of income.  They basically live off their dogs.  I don't know how they do it because I sure can't....my furkids take a chunk of my pay check.  I know a breeder who her and her husband have no job.  They have been breeding for over 20 years ... if they aren't in it for profit ... I don't know what they are in it for.
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CharmyPoo,

I am just curious. Are you saying that no one should be making an income out of breeding or just not the people who don't show their dogs? Do most reputable breeders who show have outside jobs?
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I think what CharmyPoo is referring to are people like the woman in our neighboring town who has a barn full of dogs. She has a variety of breeds and just produces puppies for her income. She drives an expensive car and probably makes a hefty income off these poor dogs. She knows nothing about pedigrees other than to get some with champions in it, then blast that all over the internet in her websites. I went to her place to look. The dogs were in a chicken house area. She told me she kept her breeders up on the hill, yet I saw about 50 in that building. The pups were raised in little wooden boxes--not much chance for human stimulation.
]
 

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Originally posted by okw@Apr 3 2005, 10:18 PM
CharmyPoo,

I am just curious.  Are you saying that no one should be making an income out of breeding or just not the people who don't show their dogs?  Do most reputable breeders who show have outside jobs?
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No, that is not what I am saying. If breeders (both show and non-show) can manage their breeding program properly, they will eventually come out close to even and if they are lucky they will make some money. For non-show breeders, their expenses are reduced because they don't have show entry fees, handling fees, driving expenses, reduced grooming products etc. Their chances of making an money is higher.

What I am saying is that for any breeder who does not have another source of income, they must be breeding their dogs so frequently that they can generate enough revenue to survive. I won't go into calculations but just think about how many dogs you have to sell in order to survive comfortably.

Most of the reputable breeders I know also have outside jobs. They work during the day and come home and tend to their kids. Several breeders I know are professional groomers and have a source of income from that. There are others who are professional handlers. Some are homemakers but their spouse brings home income from an outside job. Still others are retired and maintain their breeding program through their retirement savings.

I am no breeder but I work a full time job. I put aside a chunk of each pay check into a fund for my dogs. This fund is used for emergencies, little gifts or even saving for another furkid. I am growing this fund for the future when I begin showing and breeding. I know I spend enough just on regular vet bills, food and grooming supplies. If I didn't have a job, there is no way my furkids can live as comfortably as they do.

It is a red flag to me if the only source of income in a household is through the breeding of dogs. But that is just my opinion.
 

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The breeder that we got chelsey from does grooming on the side. She has a handeler to show her does this year as she does not have the time for the shows anymore. She does not have a lot of litters. I think they make enought to be happy. They are not wealthy but at lease she and her husband are doing what makes them happy.
They have a home a car nothing fancy but it thiers. I don't belive good breeders make a lot of money. I think they make enough to make ends meet.
 

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[/QUOTE]
They was about 14 wks old. As far as I new the evalution was done by the breeder and another lady that she used her stud.


Teaco,
The first red flag here is the age of the pups. Reputable breeders keep theirs on average for six months before they sell as show prospects. Factors such as permanent teeth and both testicles for the male must be taken into consideration. Some are sold for pets at this age because they aren't large enough to be competative.
Since you have never been to shows, start there learning so you will get some idea of what is out there showing at various ages. You might also try to find a professional handler who will do evaluations on any future pups. While it is best to have your dogs go before a judge, the next best thing is to have someone who is a professional handler with the toy breed do evaluations. Some of these are even in the process of becoming judges themself.
 

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Lucy Lou,

I definitely remember that you have an outside job!
Thanks for your very helpful responses!

CharmyPoo,

Thanks for your response. I have trouble believing that very well known breeders who sell even their "pet quality" pups for $2-3,000 are breaking even or just making a little bit of money. I know that there are great breeders who only have limited, well planned litters so they must not be making all that much money at all, but I would be willing to bet that there are others (even the ones who show their dogs and are reputable) do end up making what must be a nice profit from their pups by perhaps breeding more frequently or some other means (sort of what Lucy Lou described). Of course, this is just my opinion based on observations and not on any facts.
 

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Originally posted by okw@Apr 4 2005, 11:34 AM
CharmyPoo,

Thanks for your response.  I have trouble believing that very well known breeders who sell even their "pet quality" pups for $2-3,000 are breaking even or just making a little bit of money.  I know that there are great breeders who only have limited, well planned litters so they must not be making all that much money at all, but I would be willing to bet that there are others (even the ones who show their dogs and are reputable) do end up making what must be a nice profit from their pups by perhaps breeding more frequently or some other means (sort of what Lucy Lou described).  Of course, this is just my opinion based on observations and not on any facts.
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Do you know how much it costs to finish a dog even if you owner handle it? Entry fees for a weekend are about $50, add gas, hotel, food, etc. and a lot of weekends of it! It is not cheap. If the breeder has 1-2 pups per litter to sell and breed a couple times a year, they are easily still in the red. Don't forget vet bills, grooming products, food, handler fees if you aren't showing the dog yourself, who takes care of the dogs while you go to shows? Paid dog sitter or kennel help usually...

$600 or $800 is totally reasonable for a large breed puppy to go for, but $2000 for a toy breed isn't okay? The large breed pup came from a litter of 6 or more whereas the toy breed from a litter of 2-3. 5x$800=$4,000. I don't see the difference.

Just an emergency c-section here would be about $2,000.

For a boxer not including showing fees:
http://www.bellcrestboxers.com/littercost.html

Another nice link on selecting a breeder:
http://www.dog-play.com/breedercomparison.htm
 

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[/QUOTE]

Do you know how much it costs to finish a dog even if you owner handle it? Entry fees for a weekend are about $50, add gas, hotel, food, etc. and a lot of weekends of it! It is not cheap. If the breeder has 1-2 pups per litter to sell and breed a couple times a year, they are easily still in the red. Don't forget vet bills, grooming products, food, handler fees if you aren't showing the dog yourself, who takes care of the dogs while you go to shows? Paid dog sitter or kennel help usually...

$600 or $800 is totally reasonable for a large breed puppy to go for, but $2000 for a toy breed isn't okay? The large breed pup came from a litter of 6 or more whereas the toy breed from a litter of 2-3. 5x$800=$4,000. I don't see the difference.

Just an emergency c-section here would be about $2,000.

For a boxer not including showing fees:
http://www.bellcrestboxers.com/littercost.html

Another nice link on selecting a breeder:
http://www.dog-play.com/breedercomparison.htm
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JMM,

I hope you are not offended. I never said that maltese shouldn't cost that much! Or that showing them is cheap. I definitely think they should that much. An honest, small scale, show breeder cannot possibly be making that much of a profit. I was merely saying that a large scale (maybe out of control breeder) can be making an income.

Sorry for any misunderstanding.
 

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Originally posted by FannyMay@Apr 4 2005, 06:25 PM
Teaco,
Do you do genetic tests on your breeding male and female?
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No I have never done that. I have allot to learn I will be the first to admit that. I just hate when breeders sees somebody like myself come there way see that they have $ an all they can do is fill you full of lies an as myself I was not very educatedand talk about a night mare from that breeder it was. I would of never imagine in my life time people are that cruel an dishonest just over a dog sale all they cared was the money an as soon as the money all the money I should say hit her hand she became the women from H-------- like night to day. I have learned an from a very hard way but be the first to say I have allot more to learn about the maltese breed. I don'tt make my living raiseing dogs I have all my maltese cause I fell so much in love with them I couldn't stop at one. . Ok I have rattled way to much but good point on the genetic tests that will be in my thoughts an process in the future. Thanks for bringing that up.
Teaco
 
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