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It means that we don't know if their dogs are of a lesser quality. They are never evaluated against other dogs in an unbiased situation. The idea is that people breed to improve the quality of the breed and finishing a dog is an indicator.

Showing can be very expensive but it doesn't always have to be. There are many dog shows and no matter where the person is, there will be one within driving distance. Dogs can be owner handled and not require a handler. It takes time to learn and perfect the grooming but when there is a will .. there is a way.

I do hope you get opinions from the other side. I am a pet owner who is starting to move into showing. I do not breed. I personally don't understand how some people live off their dogs. I don't want to be mean but most that breed and not show have no other source of income. They basically live off their dogs. I don't know how they do it because I sure can't....my furkids take a chunk of my pay check. I know a breeder who her and her husband have no job. They have been breeding for over 20 years ... if they aren't in it for profit ... I don't know what they are in it for.
 

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Originally posted by Teaco@Apr 3 2005, 07:13 AM
I drove over 20 hrs to PA to purchase four show qualty so called dogs had laid over 2 gran in the ladies hand befor I...
Hi Teaco,
Wow...we are talking about the same woman. What a small world this is
I think I know who you are and I am pretty sure you figured out who I am since I don't hide my identity online. It is a terrible thing what happened to you. I hope the current situation resolves quickly and the other breeder gets her puppy back.

I would not consider someone who bred 1 litter with two show potentials a show breeder. They have yet to prove themselves (my humble opinion). In the past, I have been offered a puppy from them and I ran fast.
 

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Originally posted by okw@Apr 3 2005, 10:18 PM
CharmyPoo,

I am just curious.  Are you saying that no one should be making an income out of breeding or just not the people who don't show their dogs?  Do most reputable breeders who show have outside jobs?
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No, that is not what I am saying. If breeders (both show and non-show) can manage their breeding program properly, they will eventually come out close to even and if they are lucky they will make some money. For non-show breeders, their expenses are reduced because they don't have show entry fees, handling fees, driving expenses, reduced grooming products etc. Their chances of making an money is higher.

What I am saying is that for any breeder who does not have another source of income, they must be breeding their dogs so frequently that they can generate enough revenue to survive. I won't go into calculations but just think about how many dogs you have to sell in order to survive comfortably.

Most of the reputable breeders I know also have outside jobs. They work during the day and come home and tend to their kids. Several breeders I know are professional groomers and have a source of income from that. There are others who are professional handlers. Some are homemakers but their spouse brings home income from an outside job. Still others are retired and maintain their breeding program through their retirement savings.

I am no breeder but I work a full time job. I put aside a chunk of each pay check into a fund for my dogs. This fund is used for emergencies, little gifts or even saving for another furkid. I am growing this fund for the future when I begin showing and breeding. I know I spend enough just on regular vet bills, food and grooming supplies. If I didn't have a job, there is no way my furkids can live as comfortably as they do.

It is a red flag to me if the only source of income in a household is through the breeding of dogs. But that is just my opinion.
 

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There is a breeder who I look up to. She has all her Maltese OFA certified and I know she does testing on pups when there is the slightest chance that something could be wrong (example, very small size). I think every breeding program should do testing and getting certification. I was shocked to find some of the most popular studs today are not OFA certificted. In fact, there are so few Maltese that are OFA certified.

Here are some of her thoughts about luxating patella. This is a private email she wrote to me but I have her permission to share it for educational purpospes.

It amazes me how naive breeders can be.  You are right, if the patella are strong, they will not luxate from day to day activities such as stairs and furniture jumping.  It is possible to injure a patella like <removed> did when she ran into the door and whacked her knee. (because her knee was tight and the patella was unaturally forced out, she really screamed). 

However, it is easy to differentiate.  If it is a injury to a dog with tight patella, only the knee that is injured will be affected, the other knee will still be tight.  If both knees luxate by a year of age, it is genetic.

Another little known fact about inherited luxating patella.  As youngsters, usually the patellas will be loose, but not necessarily luxating.  Between 9 months and a year, these youngsters at some point will do an initial pop of their patellas;  the first time can be painful, but after that, the patellas just slip in and out and oddly enough, doesn't seem to bother them from that point on.

Breeders mistakenly think that the first popping is due to whatever activity it was they were doing.  In reality, it is the genetic weakness of the knee (patella) that is finally manifesting itself.  It doesn't even have to be furniture, it can be racing around the yard, or just jumping up and down that can do the initial pop.

It sure would be nice if breeders were more open about patella.  Some breeders don't even know if their dogs have luxating patella!!! (In the U.S. many breeders vaccinate their own dogs, so they never get a check up with the vet).

And it is so easy to find out.  The vet just manipulates the knee joint--if it pops, it is luxating.  And no, it is an old wive's tale that the vet can force a patella to luxate--it either does or it doesn't.  No x-rays are required.

For OFA, all the vet has to do is check the knees and sign the form. OFA certification costs a whole $15 if they pass.

At home, there is a less scientific way to tell.  If you are holding, grooming or moving the hind legs and you feel something like a clip or a sudden pop in the knees (like a double jointed thumb), that is a dead giveaway that the patellas are luxating.

In a way, I envy owners of big dogs.  No one thinks twice about asking if the hips have been OFA'd (or penn'd).  It should be the same for patella in toy dogs.  Someday, it will, but meanwhile, it continues to be a hush, hush subject.[/B]
 

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Originally posted by dhodina@Apr 6 2005, 09:44 PM
Wait I wonder if Tunder and Nibbler are related......
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Tammy herself is a well known breeder
I have always loved Tunder and his kids. I love his son River.

Nibbler and Tunder are related many generations back. They both CH Su-Le's Cordon Bleu ROM as great grand father or great great grand father. Nibbler's mom is Ch. Divine's Indecently Sweet bred by Divine Maltese and his father is CH Cameo's Beau Ideal who is the son of CH Pashes Beau Didley ROM. You can see the photos when you click on the names.
 
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