[Sandcastles]

Do any of you read consumer reports magazine? When buying something new, I often go to consumer reports to educated myself about the product (s) in question.

I look at the reviews, the reputation, quiality and reliability. From there, I make an educated decision on the product.

How is it that fluffs are different, I would think that the fluffs fall into a higher priority category - then, lets say, a washer or automobile.

So, when a person comes to this site, and claims that the breeder that they purchased their fluff from - was dubious, dishonest and irresponsible - wouldn’t you think that it would be wise to expose this breeder - to spare not only another potential owner - but the fluffs themselves?

Even if this so-called "breeder" has "folded shop" - we all know that most will open in another town, on the internet, etc. etc.

I understand the legal ramifications of slander, and I am certainly not condoning that in the least - However, I think that it’s incongruous to make statements how bad something is/was without a follow through to protect others from becoming victims.

I know the pain of losing a fluff, it is sharp, deep and relentless pain. I would do anything humanly possible, to spare a person from this kind of hurt.

This is certainly not intended to cause "drama" - I think that being over the age of ten, persons can have conversations on an adult level, with contradictory views, while maintaining composure.

Thank you,

Allie

 

[k/c mom]

I agree in principle and wish it could work out that we could do this. I think the difference between this and CR is that Consumer Reports is (supposedly) unbiased and not personally involved in the company. For example, if the CR investigator had a personal disagreement with the mfg. then they probably wouldn't be the one doing the report on them.

I think there are a couple ways to look at it. In a lot of cases of breeder issues, it is black and white .. the breeder was awful .. period. But then in other situations there are two sides to the story and only one side would be heard here; or if the breeder jumped in, too, SM would be in the position of hosting a debate/argument between breeder and buyer and of course that would be unpleasant for all.

And in some cases here, we have breeders that people have had fabulous experiences with and others who have not had great experiences with them. It might end up that members would be debating the issue and emotions would be high.

I wish there was a way that we could get breeder info out there but I'm not sure how ..

 

[Starsmom]

There is a place where ANYONE can post poor performing business' no matter the subject. Some people know about it, others have never heard of it it's - www.ripoffreport.com .

 

[MaryH]

Allie, I agree with much of what you say. However, an automobile or washing machine or any other number of non-living things can be tested in a controlled environment and something works or it doesn't. We cannot do that with dogs. There is no "one size fits all" when it comes to rating breeders. You may have had a horrid experience with the same breeder that I had a fabulous experience with. I'm not a big advocate of airing clean or dirty laundry on the internet. But if I have FIRST-HAND knowledge that I thought someone would benefit by I would not hesitate to PM or email that person.

 

[Sandcastles]

Perhaps the analogy wasn’t the best - CR vs Fluffs -

My point is/was that when a person states that they had a puppy for eight-months and that the puppy died from congenital issues. Is it unacceptable to warn others of this "breeders" ethics?

Especially, after the person stated that the "breeder" in question "closed shop"

I dunno.

 

[mary-anderson]

Allie, I agree with much of what you say. However, an automobile or washing machine or any other number of non-living things can be tested in a controlled environment and something works or it doesn't. We cannot do that with dogs. There is no "one size fits all" when it comes to rating breeders. You may have had a horrid experience with the same breeder that I had a fabulous experience with. I'm not a big advocate of airing clean or dirty laundry on the internet. But if I have FIRST-HAND knowledge that I thought someone would benefit by I would not hesitate to PM or email that person.

:goodpost:

 

[Ladysmom]

Perhaps the analogy wasn’t the best - CR vs Fluffs -

My point is/was that when a person states that they had a puppy for eight-months and that the puppy died from congenital issues. Is it unacceptable to warn others of this "breeders" ethics?

Especially, after the person stated that the "breeder" in question "closed shop"

I dunno.

It is absolutely acceptable that the OP in that thread chose not to name the breeder. She came to us asking for help finding a healthy Maltese from a show breeder, not to start drama with her first post by trashing her other breeder.

She said that the breeder in question sold all her dogs and is no longer breeding. She also stated that she chose not to share the name. She is moving forward, not looking back. We should respect her decision.

I love newbies like her who ask our help in finding a reputable breeder. I pray she hasn't been scared off by the few who are publicly demanding she name her other breeder and questioning whether or not she is "genuine".

 

[MaryH]

Perhaps the analogy wasn’t the best - CR vs Fluffs -

My point is/was that when a person states that they had a puppy for eight-months and that the puppy died from congenital issues. Is it unacceptable to warn others of this "breeders" ethics?

Especially, after the person stated that the "breeder" in question "closed shop"

I dunno.

Whether a person is still in business or has closed up shop, the subjectivenes of "good vs bad" is still there. Airing laundry on a public forum is, as far as I'm concerned, counterproductive to getting good information out there. Keeping it private is a much better approach in my humble opinion. How many times over the years have we seen a "bad news" post by someone saying "my breeder blah blah" or "my dog has blah blah". And not long after the post disappears or is edited beyond all recognition? Why? Hmmmm. Some breeders have an obvious presence on this forum, some breeders lurk, and some breeders have their SM member/friends report back to them. So you post something like "I'm thinking of getting a dog from Breeder X. Any thoughts?" and someone responds with "I got one from Breeder X and did not have a good experience [insert sad story here]." Next thing that happens is the poster of the sad story gets a phone call from Breeder X saying "How dare you? I will sue you." and the post gets removed. Or the Admin Team gets an email from Breeder X saying "Remove the thread or I'll sue." and, poof, the thread is gone. So isn't hitting the PM button the better way to get good info out in a discreet manner without the threat of repurcussion? If more people used the PM button about their FIRST-HAND negative experiences, there would be far less of those happening. But it takes all of us to create an environment that makes good people feel safe.

 

[Sandcastles]

It is absolutely acceptable that the OP in that thread chose not to name the breeder. She came to us asking for help finding a healthy Maltese from a show breeder, not to start drama with her first post by trashing her other breeder.

She said that the breeder in question sold all her dogs and is no longer breeding. She also stated that she chose not to share the name. She is moving forward, not looking back. We should respect her decision.

I love newbies like her who ask our help in finding a reputable breeder. I pray she hasn't been scared off by the few who are publicly demanding she name her other breeder and questioning whether or not she is "genuine".

I think that perhaps you have misunderstood my concerns -

I, in no way, whatsoever - "demanded" anything from anyone - and I never indicated that a person wasn’t "genuine"

I have seen over the past few months photo’s of dogs that are suffering terribly because of these so called "breeders" - that was my ONLY concern.

You know, like little Ginger with maggots - being rescued at the 11th hour - things like that Marj keep me awake at night.

That’s what I was attempting to do, help expose scum-bags that breed for greed, and leave helpless fluffs in the cold to die.

 

[MaryH]

It is absolutely acceptable that the OP in that thread chose not to name the breeder. She came to us asking for help finding a healthy Maltese from a show breeder, not to start drama with her first post by trashing her other breeder.

She said that the breeder in question sold all her dogs and is no longer breeding. She also stated that she chose not to share the name. She is moving forward, not looking back. We should respect her decision.

I love newbies like her who ask our help in finding a reputable breeder. I pray she hasn't been scared off by the few who are publicly demanding she name her other breeder and questioning whether or not she is "genuine".

Poor Allie asked whether it was "unacceptable to warn others". Where did "drama" and "trashing" come from?? This is exactly what I'm talking about in my response where I said "But it takes all of us to create an environment that makes good people feel safe."

 

[bellaratamaltese]

I think that perhaps you have misunderstood my concerns -

I, in no way, whatsoever - "demanded" anything from anyone - and I never indicated that a person wasn’t "genuine"

I have seen over the past few months photo’s of dogs that are suffering terribly because of these so called "breeders" - that was my ONLY concern.

You know, like little Ginger with maggots - being rescued at the 11th hour - things like that Marj keep me awake at night.

That’s what I was attempting to do, help expose scum-bags that breed for greed, and leave helpless fluffs in the cold to die.

Not sure it's a 'breed for greed' scenario but more having health issues in a line and deciding it's not worth breeding anymore and 'closing up shop'. I have more respect for that than the breeders who continue breeding dogs from lines that have given them serious health issues.

ETA: I am not 'defending' the breeder in question in any way. But I'd rather see a breeder not breed anymore than breed unhealthy lines.

 

[Sandcastles]

Whether a person is still in business or has closed up shop, the subjectivenes of "good vs bad" is still there. Airing laundry on a public forum is, as far as I'm concerned, counterproductive to getting good information out there. Keeping it private is a much better approach in my humble opinion. How many times over the years have we seen a "bad news" post by someone saying "my breeder blah blah" or "my dog has blah blah". And not long after the post disappears or is edited beyond all recognition? Why? Hmmmm. Some breeders have an obvious presence on this forum, some breeders lurk, and some breeders have their SM member/friends report back to them. So you post something like "I'm thinking of getting a dog from Breeder X. Any thoughts?" and someone responds with "I got one from Breeder X and did not have a good experience [insert sad story here]." Next thing that happens is the poster of the sad story gets a phone call from Breeder X saying "How dare you? I will sue you." and the post gets removed. Or the Admin Team gets an email from Breeder X saying "Remove the thread or I'll sue." and, poof, the thread is gone. So isn't hitting the PM button the better way to get good info out in a discreet manner without the threat of repurcussion? If more people used the PM button about their FIRST-HAND negative experiences, there would be far less of those happening. But it takes all of us to create an environment that makes good people feel safe.

Mary,

"The Art of Articulation" certainly applies to you, Mary.

Thank you for explaining this to me in a non-confrontational way.

I deeply appreciate it.

Allie

 

[allheart]

Mary,

"The Art of Articulation" certainly applies to you, Mary.

Thank you for explaining this to me in a non-confrontational way.

I deeply appreciate it.

Allie

Oh dear Allie, I know where your heart is and I understand. But on an open public fourum, with this topic, it's so difficult. Sometimes, there's one side of a situtation, that someone post about, and that was their personal view, but may not be accurate. It could go wrong in so many ways, but your thought process, is right from the heart, in saving any suffering for anymore fur-babies.

Thankfully, in that specific case, the breeder is no longer breeding, that is a huge plus.

I do understand completely where your heart is coming from.

 

[aprilb]

I'm glad this was brought up. I don't know if anyone is familiar with the "Maltese Only" website. There is a list of reputable breeders on that site that can be purchased for $5. The breeders are listed by state. There is also a special Feedback forum where people can anonymously post their experiences with the breeders good or bad. Anyone can read the comments but the list has to be purchased to see who the breeders are. (you get a pin#) Only the facts can be posted. It is a good system that has worked well for several years. This is how I found my breeder. There were many comments from people who had purchased Malts from her, and all of them were great. Reputations good or bad get around and the most reliable information like Mary H said, should be from someone who has actually purchased a dog from said breeder. Emotions, gossip, and back-biting need to be kept out of it. (sometimes I have to bite my tongue!:HistericalSmiley Breeders are not gods. Sometimes things go wrong without the breeder's intention. The best contract protects the dog, the buyer, and the breeder. Perhaps we could do a feedback forum on this site. To get an idea of how it works go to: Maltese Dog Breeder Feedback/Comments

 

[Starsmom]

Many of us here are well aware of MO :HistericalSmiley: - and are here b/c we've been booted from it for posting something the site owner Jay Bianco disapproved of. For me it was posting where I bought little scrunchies, and barretts - I really ought to thank him for it, otherwise I wouldn't have found SM! If MO's owner was really interested in providing information about Maltese breeders he wouldn't be CHARGING for the AMA list you can get for $0, or the list you referenced. I'll get off my soapbox about MO now...

A prospective buyer of any breed has to do some homework. Choose a few breeders, talk to them, ask for a list of other parents, etc., and whittle down from there. With the net being so accessable these days, it's easy to find breeders,but you have to be careful and know what to watch out for. There are sooo many who are brokers, greeders, millers. I call them internet land mines.

 

[Ladysmom]

This is pinned in the Breeders section and an excellent resource for anyone looking for a Maltese puppy.

http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/56-breeders/97845-maltese-breeders-how-find-evaulate.html

 

[aprilb]

Many of us here are well aware of MO :HistericalSmiley: - and are here b/c we've been booted from it for posting something the site owner Jay Bianco disapproved of. For me it was posting where I bought little scrunchies, and barretts - I really ought to thank him for it, otherwise I wouldn't have found SM! If MO's owner was really interested in providing information about Maltese breeders he wouldn't be CHARGING for the AMA list you can get for $0, or the list you referenced. I'll get off my soapbox about MO now...

I think MO is now owned by Chrisman Maltese but I no longer use the forum.


A prospective buyer of any breed has to do some homework. Choose a few breeders, talk to them, ask for a list of other parents, etc., and whittle down from there. With the net being so accessable these days, it's easy to find breeders,but you have to be careful and know what to watch out for. There are sooo many who are brokers, greeders, millers. I call them internet land mines.

Doing homework is a given, in my opinion. I was simply suggesting an ethical way to give feedback on breeders. I think MO does an excellent job with this and that we could learn from it.

 

[MaryH]

I'm glad this was brought up. I don't know if anyone is familiar with the "Maltese Only" website. There is a list of reputable breeders on that site that can be purchased for $5. The breeders are listed by state. There is also a special Feedback forum where people can anonymously post their experiences with the breeders good or bad. Anyone can read the comments but the list has to be purchased to see who the breeders are. (you get a pin#) Only the facts can be posted. It is a good system that has worked well for several years. This is how I found my breeder. There were many comments from people who had purchased Malts from her, and all of them were great. Reputations good or bad get around and the most reliable information like Mary H said, should be from someone who has actually purchased a dog from said breeder. Emotions, gossip, and back-biting need to be kept out of it. (sometimes I have to bite my tongue!:HistericalSmiley Breeders are not gods. Sometimes things go wrong without the breeder's intention. The best contract protects the dog, the buyer, and the breeder. Perhaps we could do a feedback forum on this site. To get an idea of how it works go to: Maltese Dog Breeder Feedback/Comments

Many of us here are well aware of MO :HistericalSmiley: - and are here b/c we've been booted from it for posting something the site owner Jay Bianco disapproved of. For me it was posting where I bought little scrunchies, and barretts - I really ought to thank him for it, otherwise I wouldn't have found SM! If MO's owner was really interested in providing information about Maltese breeders he wouldn't be CHARGING for the AMA list you can get for $0, or the list you referenced. I'll get off my soapbox about MO now...

A prospective buyer of any breed should to do some homework. Choose a few breeders, talk to them, ask for a list of other parents, etc., and whittle down from there. With the net being so accessable these days, it's easy to find breeders,but you have to be careful and know what to watch out for. There are sooo many who are brokers, greeders, millers. I call them internet land mines.

No breeder list, whether it costs $0 or $100, is perfect. It's a research tool. No "what to look for in a breeder" list is perfect. It's a research tool. No website is perfect. Anyone can make a website or have one made to give the appearance of being one thing while the reality might be something completely different. I would caution anyone to be careful of a feedback forum where people can post anonymously, especially on a moderated discussion forum. Information shared anonymously on a moderated forum may only be as trustworthy as the person(s) sharing information and/or moderating the forum. I started out by first determining what was important to me. I went to dog shows to get a sense of what I wanted in a dog. I spoke with breeders to get a sense of the ongoing relationship I could expect to have with that breeder. I visited with puppies because it was important to me to see them, hold them, and play with them before I made a lifelong commitment. There is no perfect recipe. For me personally, buying a dog sight unseen was out of the question. Luckily things worked out well for me and I've had no regrets.

 

[k/c mom]

I'm glad this was brought up. I don't know if anyone is familiar with the "Maltese Only" website. There is a list of reputable breeders on that site that can be purchased for $5. The breeders are listed by state. There is also a special Feedback forum where people can anonymously post their experiences with the breeders good or bad. Anyone can read the comments but the list has to be purchased to see who the breeders are. (you get a pin#) Only the facts can be posted. It is a good system that has worked well for several years. This is how I found my breeder. There were many comments from people who had purchased Malts from her, and all of them were great. Reputations good or bad get around and the most reliable information like Mary H said, should be from someone who has actually purchased a dog from said breeder. Emotions, gossip, and back-biting need to be kept out of it. (sometimes I have to bite my tongue!:HistericalSmiley Breeders are not gods. Sometimes things go wrong without the breeder's intention. The best contract protects the dog, the buyer, and the breeder. Perhaps we could do a feedback forum on this site. To get an idea of how it works go to: Maltese Dog Breeder Feedback/Comments

Yep, many of us old timers are familiar with him and his site and wouldn't give him one cent of our money. :angry::yucky::thmbdn:

 

[aprilb]

This is pinned in the Breeders section and an excellent resource for anyone looking for a Maltese puppy.

http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/56-breeders/97845-maltese-breeders-how-find-evaulate.html

While this is helpful in evaluating breeders, there is little info on who are the reputable breeders. The AMA list is an incomplete list. The breeders affiliated with AMA decide whether or not they want to be on the list. There are other AMA breeders out there that are NOT on the AMA list.