[k/c mom]

Originally posted by TuckersMom@Jul 25 2005, 03:39 PM
My dog has done this to me when I try to take something out of his mouth, he also bit me a couple of times while taking something from his mouth.  Hubby told me to spank him and don't ever let him get away with snarling at me and biting, even the lady I got him from said the same thing, but I don't like to spank such a small dog, although I did after he did it a couple of times.  He really is usually such a sweet dog, but when he gets something he shouldn't have in his mouth, he just doesn't want to let go.  He doesn't do it to my husband though.  I think he knows mom is just a big softie and daddy isn't, LOL.
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I am very passionate about this subject so ...... I have never seen any kind of dog training book whatsoever that recommends hitting a dog, not even a big dog. Please do not spank your baby.

He will not even know why you are spanking him. And it is not his fault that he is doing this.. he is being a dog. It is up to you to teach your dog manners. He may even think of himself as your alpha.... there is a lot to doggy psychology and why they do certain things. I suggest doing a lot of research and reading and training.... and not hitting. If he is snarling, biting, etc. you definitely need to do some training and nip it in the bud.

I hope JMM will help us out here and offer some ideas... she is very experienced in dog training, etc.

 

[k/c mom]

Originally posted by JMM@Jul 25 2005, 09:35 PM
I would NEVER recommend physically forcing a dog down to establish your position in the pack.
- It doesn't work. An alpha never uses physical force to take their position. Only lower ranked pack members use force to try to fight for status.
- You're asking for trouble. Forcing a dog down is a threat to the dog...a deadly threat to a dog. Speaking from experience of restraining dogs in a veterinary practice, this is not something to do on your own if you don't want to be bitten.
Hitting a dog does absolutely nothing other than make them hand shy. Punishment has to be done very precisely to work. It must be done at the exact time of the behavior you dislike. It must be strong enough to get a reaction. It must be followed by an opportunity to do the correct behavior and be rewarded for it. If you can't do that, then you shouldn't punish the dog.

Wow, ... what great info!! Even for some of us without the problem, this stuff is good to know.

Jackie... I have a question. When you say "punishment" in this context: "Punishment has to be done very precisely to work. It must be done at the exact time of the behavior you dislike. It must be strong enough to get a reaction," what sort of actions would the "punishment" consist of?

 

[k/c mom]

Originally posted by JMM+Jul 25 2005, 09:52 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Kallie/Catcher's Mom

@Jul 25 2005, 08:42 PM
Wow, ... what great info!! Even for some of us without the problem, this stuff is good to know.

Jackie... I have a question. When you say "punishment" in this context: "Punishment has to be done very precisely to work. It must be done at the exact time of the behavior you dislike. It must be strong enough to get a reaction," what sort of actions would the "punishment" consist of?
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I was meaning generic punishment that most people think of - adding something aversive to stop a behavior.

In learning theory we have:
positive reinforcement - add something to make a behavior occur more often
negative reinforcement - take something away to make a behavior occur more often
positive punishment - add something to decrease the occurance of a behavior
negative punishment - remove something to decrease the occurance of a behavior

The 2 I like to use and can most effectively are pr - like clicker training or giving treats to rewards a behavior and np - removing something like myself when a puppy bites or ignoring the dog who isn't paying attention to me when I want their focus.

Positive punishment is what most people think of when they think of punishment - a spanking, yelling, saying no, etc. This is actually quite hard to do effectively (think of how many times you tell your dog to stop barking or hear a parent tell their toddler no) so I don't recommend it. It tends to make you and the dog frustrated and get you nowhere.
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Thanks for clarifying... I couldn't think of what that meant but now that you explain, it makes total sense.... Kallie has a shrill bark when we play ball and I'm trying to just get up and stop the game when she starts that. I hope she'll associate the two actions... her barking with my getting off the floor....

 

[k/c mom]

Originally posted by babybinks22@Jul 26 2005, 12:24 AM
I think jackie's advice is great.  aside from being the "alpha dog" part.  I learned that kenji was very VERY aggressive.  He was neutered after being a year old, and being the male of him and I.  We live in an apartment and he hadn't been socialized very much so he has the need to protect me from mostly everyone he doesn't familiarize himself with or feel "safe" around.  I read a lot of books about punishment... I don't hit my dog.  I use the old traiditional way of other alpha dogs in a pack.  The alpha dog does not "hit" like a human.  Instead, they pounce on them and put them on their back.  For you, just pick up your dog as soon as you see something he is doing as disobedience, and lay him on his back putting very little pressure (like friendly patting but constant pressure) with one hand on his neck and chest... the other hand is creadling his neck and back during the flip.  The alpha dog in every pack will "pin" the other dog down to teach him who's boss.  they bite the neck and put them on their belly. Instead... gently pick up your pooch immediately after the deed,put him on his back gently and say "no".  your hands should be placed GENTLY on their chest and neck (your hand an "L" figure with thumb outstanding) to put soft pressure on their chest when laid on their back. The trick is to pick them up and flip them on their back GENTLY.  Your other hand is cradling their head and neck so you don't bump their head... you need to do this on a soft surface anyway.  I'm used to it so i flip him over wherever he is bad.  You just gotta get the feel of flipping him over.  Practice on the bed if he ever starts biting.  The "turtle" position is submissive and they will usually stop barking or assume your position as alpha in command.
Love lei
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What you are describing is the "alpha roll" and it indeed is an "old traditional" method but it is now out of favor and has been proven to not be good to do. I didn't know any better with my first Malt in 1990 and I used it and had terrible results. Here are some up-to-date articles about this practice:

http://dogs.about.com/cs/basictraining/a/alpha_roll.htm

The Alpha Roll, once hailed as the premier way to prove to your dog who's "Alpha" (Boss) in the family, has been replaced by a gentler, more successful way of training. Now the Alpha Roll, besides being obsolete, has proven to be detrimental to the health and mental well-being of your dog, as well as downright dangerous to the "Roller".

What is an Alpha Roll?

An Alpha Roll is the act of flipping your dog onto his back, and holding his throat. Supposedly this will teach him that YOU are Alpha, and he will respect you for this.
Wrong.

Why The Apha Roll Is Dangerous

Dog Park member Violetcows said it best:

"The only reason that a dog will FORCEFULLY flip another dog over on its back is to kill the animal. By forcing an animal to submit in that way you are literally putting the fear of death into them, they think you are trying to kill them. It is not surprising that a lot of people get bit trying to do the alpha roll - the dog believes that the human is trying to kill them so they try and defend themselves. Doing this behavior to an already dominant animal can increase the likelihood of aggression. Doing this to an already submissive animal will increase the fear in that animal - leading to submissive urination and possible fear biting. Hands should never, ever be used to hurt an animal - an alpha roll does just that and its efficacy at asserting dominance is next to zero."


http://doityourself.com/pets/whosboss.htm

tp://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.p...S=1&SourceID=60

http://bullmastiffinfo.tripod.com/alpha.htm

 

[k/c mom]

Originally posted by Frosty's Mom@Jul 26 2005, 03:54 PM
I found out the hard way!  When Frosty was little I took him to a puppy class where they taught sit, down, etc.  He was reluctant to lie down and grumbled (not really a growl, more like cussing under his breath 

).  The "trainer" took over and flipped him on his back. When she let him up he turned his back on her and never looked at her again. She came up to me while I was holding him after class to pet him and he jerked himself around putting his back to her.  She said "Oops, we have a problem, he's too smart for his own good". I had to quit the class because every time I brought him into the building he would run to the door wanting out.  I had lost any hope of using that trainer anyway! I have never been able to put him on his side or back since for any reason. He fights like someone is going to kill him. He has become progressively more  aggressive as he's gotten older.  All these years I've been wishing I could throw her on her back! 

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I know what you mean.... My first Maltese, Rosebud, was a feisty one and I had a trainer who came to the house. She had me do the alpha roll, too. Rosebud would fight and try to bite even while I was doing it. I hated doing it... it just didn't seem right; but I didn't know any better then and there was no Internet and SM in 1990.

Rosebud, throughout her life, would snap at me and was just tempermental like that. I think that the early bad training was the cause. I would never do that nor any of the other things that were considered acceptable back then.

HOWEVER, something interesting.... Catcher cannot stand to have his belly show. So he doesn't ever lie on his back. If I pick him up and he is facing forward, he will flip around and hug my neck like he is scared to death. If he wants me to rub his belly, he will only partially turn over at the chest area and leave the rest in a side position. I know he considers me his alpha because I can take even a favorite toy or Kleenex, etc. right out of his mouth without a problem, etc. He has a wonderful, calm disposition and is not at all feisty with me and is extremely obedient... just a great Malt... The only little quirk is that he doesn't like to expose his belly. He has been like that since day one.