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Marj,
Thank you for sharing this article with us.

Even the Humaine society says:
"Urge other people not to buy puppies from pet stores, over the Internet, or from newspaper ads."

When you are buying a pup from a pet store think of their mother and father who live in a small cage 24/7 without human touch, having litter after litter, not being able to run free in the grass or have someone take them for a walk, without a warm bed, without a toy or a treat and the list goes on and on...those dogs know no love what so ever. their life's are so miserable, boring and frustrated.
If we keep buying from petstore trying to save those puppies this circle will never end.
puppymill pictures click on inside a mill

The life of a dog in a puppymill

It is not the fault of those puppies at the pet shop but we have to stop buying them so their mothers, sisters, fathers and brothers stop being abused by greedy, heartless people.
 

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As I said before I do not see petstores or puppymills disappearing any time soon. So my question again is why not accept that we can not convince everyone not to buy from a byb, petstore or even directly from a broker, and shift our focus to ending the conditions of puppymills instead of the puppymill itself.

Now do not get me wrong I am not saying stop the education of the public, that is definetly something that should continue. But while educating them lets pass laws and create regulations that control and improve the condition these animals are kept in.

I know many are not going to agree with this statement, but here I go anyway. The millers and backyard breeders are treating these dogs as livestock not their family pet. Now in dealing w/ livestock you have certian rules that must be met inorder for them to be sold to the general public. I put some of my other thoughts out there earlier but here they go again, including JMM's which I agreed with.
Examples of laws I think are needed:

1. Set a limit on the amount of litters a dog or bitch can produce in their lifetime. Say 4 litters in their lifetime for a bitch and no more than 3 litters per year for a dog.

2. Breed specific testing must be done before sale in petstore. For malts: liver shunts, goldens and shepherds hip dysplasia, shar pei eye stuff for example. Also manditory yearly exams by an approved vet with a report submitted as to the condition of each animal on the property to the usda and made available to the public.

3. A minimum size requirement for each enclosure. For horses you must have one acre per horse. Why isn't there one for these dogs?

4. Quarterly inspections and freedom for suprise inspections. Hire more USDA inspectors just for this field.

5. Open them to the public. Make it a law that your facility must be open to the public from 8-5 monday thru friday. Let us help inspect and control the conditions these dogs are in.

and JMM's
1. Not only limit the number of litters in a lifetime, but limit the age range a dog can be bred in. For example, not before second season or before a certain age, and not after four years of age.
As for the number of litters produced in a year, the average heat cycle is seven months, with many not coming in but every nine, ten, or even twelve months. It is unlikely there are many dogs out there who would have a four month heat cycle and breed every time.
 

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They have all sorts of laws for drugs and drug dealers and we still have drug problems. Do we buy up all the drugs so that other people cant get their hands on them? Impossible.

While I think it is great to want to set a standard and laws for animals care, the best thing to do is reduce demand. If they cannot make $, they will not breed plain and simple. Yes, its a looooong road.

I certainly hope those who dont agree realize that I dont love animals any less because I feel this way. I just hate hate hate puppymillers more! I cannot even bring myself to read entire articles or see those poor creatures. And to think that those people have my $ in their hands, no way.
 

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Originally posted by Nichole@May 3 2005, 01:05 PM
  I have looked at several of the so-called "reputable" breeders and seen that they sometimes have pups for sale.  Why is that any different from placing an ad in the newspaper?
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I think not buying any dog from online or the paper was a general statment, you know like there are a few reputalbe breeders who have there dogs there but the majority arnt. Its easier to say 'dont buy a pet from a newspaper ad' than 'dont buy a pet from a newpaper ad unless you have reasearched the breeder ect.....". I might be wrong though I didnt read the whole article either lol
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I think the solution lies in attacking the problem from many angles. The AKC argues that we need to better enforce our existing laws, i.e the Animal Welfare Act before enacting new legislation like the Puppy Protection Act which would limit the number of litters, require a female be a certain age before being bred, and have a "3 strikes and you're out" policy for violators. Currently pet stores aren't even regulated at all becasue they sell directly to the consumer. BYB's are also not regulated and the majority of purebred dogs are sold through BYB's, not puppy mills.

Since the sale of purebred dogs is a multi-million dollar a year industry (look at the Hunte Corporation), there is heavy, well financed lobbying to prevent any legislation that would regulate the industry. There is a powerful group in Missouri (the heart of puppy mill country) blocking any new legislation with the restrictions you mention. These groups successfully blocked the passage of the Puppy Protection Act even though it passed the full Senate. So enacting any significant legislation in the near future may be just as unrealistic as trying to get the consumer to stop buying from pet shops and puppy mills.

If you think of the issue as like civil rights for animals, you can compare it to our own civil rights movement here in the US. Its success depended on both protest and boycott and enacting new legislation. Only with this combination did it succeed. And never forget that each individual that marched, or protested, or refused to sit in the back of the bus contributed to the success of the civil rights movement. Every time we refuse to support the puppy industry by walking away from that pet store cage, we are making a contribution, however small, to this effort.
 

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Drugs are illegal and not a marketable item where these puppies are legal and marketable. No one is saying go buy up all the puppies. My point is, yes it is an extremely long road to do away with puppymills, so why not regulate the conditions until we can do away with puppymills. Wouldn't that be better than allowing all these dogs to suffer while we take the time to educate everyone. And you are also assuming that everyone is going to agree to the education. It is kind of like the old statement you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. We educate everyone, that does not mean that they will not buy from a puppymill. Which is why I don't see how puppymills are ever going to vanish by only educating the public.

However by regulating them and doing a 3 violations you can no longer sell to the public they only have the choice of conforming or shutting down. Now will there be "black market puppymills" yes, but those will be there even if we do away with them completely.
 

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Originally posted by ilove_d&m@May 3 2005, 10:21 AM
Even the Humaine society says:
"Urge other people not to buy puppies from pet stores, over the Internet, or from newspaper ads."

When you are buying a pup from a pet store think of their mother and father who live in a small cage 24/7 without human touch, having litter after litter, not being able to run free in the grass or have someone take them for a walk, without a warm bed, without a toy or a treat and the list goes on and on...those dogs know no love what so ever. their life's are so miserable, boring and frustrated.
If we keep buying from petstore trying to save those puppies this circle will never end.
puppymill pictures click on inside a mill

The life of a dog in a puppymill

It is not the fault of those puppies at the pet shop but we have to stop buying them so their mothers, sisters, fathers and brothers stop being abused by greedy, heartless people.
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I agree with u 100 %!
 

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My remarks are in red.

Originally posted by dhodina@May 3 2005, 03:34 PM
Drugs are illegal and not a marketable item where these puppies are legal and marketable.  No one is saying go buy up all the puppies.  My point is,  yes it is an extremely long road to do away with puppymills, so why not regulate the conditions until we can do away with puppymills.  Wouldn't that be better than allowing all these dogs to suffer while we take the time to educate everyone.  And you are also assuming that everyone is going to agree to the education.  It is kind of like the old statement you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.  We educate everyone, that does not mean that they will not buy from a puppymill. You proved that point.  Which is why I don't see how puppymills are ever going to vanish by only educating the public. educating the public is only part of it.  A small part that I participate in to help with the bigger picture.  If we didn't do small things behind the scenes then nothing would ever get accomplished.

However by regulating them and doing a 3 violations you can no longer sell to the public they only have the choice of conforming or shutting down.  Now will there be "black market puppymills" yes, but those will be there even if we do away with them completely.didn't you read Marj's post?  These laws are having a hard time coming about.  It's just as hard to get these regulations as it is to get people to stop buying from puppy mills, but you still have to try.  So you are saying that only your ideas are worth trying?
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Originally posted by FannyMay+May 4 2005, 09:54 AM-->
My remarks are in red.

<!--QuoteBegin-dhodina
@May 3 2005, 03:34 PM
Drugs are illegal and not a marketable item where these puppies are legal and marketable.  No one is saying go buy up all the puppies.  My point is,  yes it is an extremely long road to do away with puppymills, so why not regulate the conditions until we can do away with puppymills.  Wouldn't that be better than allowing all these dogs to suffer while we take the time to educate everyone.   And you are also assuming that everyone is going to agree to the education.  It is kind of like the old statement you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.  We educate everyone, that does not mean that they will not buy from a puppymill. You proved that point.  Which is why I don't see how puppymills are ever going to vanish by only educating the public. educating the public is only part of it.  A small part that I participate in to help with the bigger picture.  If we didn't do small things behind the scenes then nothing would ever get accomplished.

However by regulating them and doing a 3 violations you can no longer sell to the public they only have the choice of conforming or shutting down.  Now will there be "black market puppymills" yes, but those will be there even if we do away with them completely.didn't you read Marj's post?  These laws are having a hard time coming about.  It's just as hard to get these regulations as it is to get people to stop buying from puppy mills, but you still have to try.  So you are saying that only your ideas are worth trying?
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I am sorry you feel that I alone proved the point that you can not stop everyone from purchasing there. However, never once have I personally attacked you or made a statement that "YOU" did anything. I am sorry that you can not have a discussion with out taking it to a personal level. To me this was a disscussion on what other ideas we have to ending our common goal the suffering of these dogs. We are all in agreement that it needs to end. I think we can all agree there is no quick fix. However, personal attacks and judgements are not the way to do it. I get the impression that because these laws are hard to come into place we shouldn't fight for them but instead should only quit buying from puppymills. Please do not get me wrong, I have been involved in rescue for years, both equine and canine, I am not unsympathtic to the anger you feel towards people who buy from puppymills and continue the cycle, but I must tell you that you are not going to convince me that I did the wrong thing, your judgement of me and anger towards me isn't going to take away from my joy that I helped one dog. True, there are many others that will not be saved, regardless if I had bought her or not. I made my choice and I stand by it. I belong to local groups here in Chicago who thru our lists will bombard our senators and congressman with emails and letters to help stop or put thru bills and we have seen progress and our opinions and actions have helped. Public education is a must but we need to put all pieces together and work to a common goal. My question for you Fanny and correct me if I am wrong, but she is a puppymill dog as well right? On that assumption I ask, knowing what you know now, do you feel guilty for giving her a wonderful home for rescueing her from an unknown fate? Would do you it again knowing you would get Fanny out of the deal?
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Here is a link to an excellent animal law website that lists all the currently proposed legislation. There is presently no bill before the 109th Congress that will further regulate puppy mills.

You can also read the full text of the now-defeated Puppy Protection Act that would have included some of the restrictions suggested here by Dhodina and others, like requiring that a female dog be at least one year old before being bred, have no more than 3 litters in a 24 month period, and suspend the license of any breeder convicted of 3 violations in an 8 year period.

http://www.nabr.org/AnimalLaw/Proposals/index.htm

We can't depend on legislation to make this problem go away in the near future. As individuals, I believe we can make a difference if we refuse to purchase so much as a can of food from a pet store, let alone a live animal. As some of you may remember, less than 15 years ago, with the exception of Revlon, most of the cosmetic companies tested on animals. As the public became aware of the horrors that went on behind the scenes, they began to boycott the hold-out companies like L'Oreal. It worked. Look how many companies today prominently display on their labels "not tested on animals".

So never kid yourself that one person, taking a stand for a principle, can make a difference. It's not up to Congress or the lady next door to stop the suffering, it's up to us.
 

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Originally posted by Holliberry@May 3 2005, 02:00 PM
While I think it is great to want to set a standard and laws for animals care, the best thing to do is reduce demand.  If they cannot make $, they will not breed plain and simple.  Yes, its a looooong road.

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I agree with this statement 100%.

It is a long road ahead and nothing happens overnight but if we educate people about puppymills and we don't contribute by "saving" the pups at the pet store also by enforcing our current laws and passing new ones with an even heavier penalty we someday see the big picture.
 

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Marj, wow...this is great information. I could use a bit of clarification though, is the Animal Welfare Act (AWA) already in effect? If so, exactly what are it's short comings? How would you propose to amend it? I guess I'm trying to boil down the key points that the perfect law would contain. I really like the idea of doing an end run on the puppy mills through breeding standards, but with 96 Federal investigators, will that really be enforced? Maybe we need to think about all of this like seat belt laws. Pass a piece of Federal legislation that places the burden of enforcement on the states. States that did not pass seat belt legislation could not become eligible for Federal highway improvement funds. So my question to Marj and everyone else: can we come up with 10 points that a "perfect" piece of legislation would contain?
 

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Originally posted by saltymalty@May 4 2005, 01:31 PM
So my question to Marj and everyone else:  can we come up with 10 points that a "perfect" piece of legislation would contain?
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Keeping in mind that this legislation cannot be so tough as to make it impossible for reputable, ethical breeders to continue to breed. You see it all the time. Laws that are created that not only hurt the bad guy when enforced but also the good guys. I cant think of one example myself, but maybe the breeders on the forum could point out if they have seen anything on the table that might affect them negatively.

We also have folks who want to spend a reasonable amount of money on a puppy. I am all for folks not having to break the bank to purchase one. Will some of these laws make it impossible for some folks to even break even trying to breed or is that not a reasonable question?

I think this is a good topic
 

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Discussion Starter #17
The Prisoners of Greed website has an overview of the Animal Welfare Act and a link to the full text here:

http://www.prisonersofgreed.org/USDA.html

You hit the nail on the head. The biggest problem with enforcing the AWA is the lack of inspectors. The AKC argues that we already have legislation in place to regulate the industry and helped defeat the Puppy Protection Act because it didn't want to see the breeding of purebred dogs controlled. It's big business and the Hunte Corporation and the Missouri "breeders" are very organized, vocal and have deep pockets. I had heard that it would be reintroduced this month, but so I haven't seen anything about it.

Here's a link to the AKC's position:

http://www.akc.org/news/index.cfm?article_id=1916

Saltymalty, that's an excellent idea. It's such a hot topic here and a sensitive issue for some, but I think most of us agree that we oppose these mills and would like to see something done to protect these poor animals who suffer for profit. I think instead of battling among ourselves, focusing our energy on doing something positive is a wonderful idea!
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Here's some incentive:

Mama killed my brother today

Shannon McClure
Addie's Safehouse IG Rescue
Copyright March 1999

"Mama killed my brother today.
All he wanted to do was play.
He bit her ear – he didn't know it was
frostbitten from last night's snow."

She was eight months old when we were born
In an old wire cage at the puppy farm.
In pain and scared, in the dark and alone,
Mama gave us our lives and made us a home.

She cleaned each one up and chewed through the cords,
And she layed on the wire so we'd stay on the boards.
She moved us around so we'd all get some milk.
I thought Mama's belly felt just like silk.

She stayed up nights from the time we arrived.
And nosed us and licked us to keep us alive.
She grew weak and thin but she made no fuss,
And she managed to save all eight of us.

But all mamas need some place to go
When little puppies start to grow.
Their razor teeth and needle nails
Turn 3 x 4 cages into jails.

An hour of rest and a little sun -
If she'd just had some space to run….
Or a place for us to tumble and play
For at least a little part of each day.

I wish she could have walked in the yard,
So her life would not have been so hard.
But our Mama, who'd been so sweet and kind,
Was slowly starting to lose her mind.

Then last night the big snow came down
It piled up some places two feet on the ground.
The wind blew it on us, with no place to hide.
But bless our poor mama, she tried and she tried.

She snapped when he bit her – her ear was so sore.
Not meaning to hurt him, just tell him "No more!"
He was caught in the ribcage and punctured a lung.
Brother died on her belly, right where he'd begun.

She's nosing him now but he cannot stir.
And all we can do is look at her.
She started to cry and has howled all day,
Still nobody's come to take him away.

I was scared to see my brother die,
But more scared to hear my Mama cry.
And just now the big truck's come rolling in
To take some more pups from the pens again.

They had them all loaded when he looked in at us.
He just shook his head and went back for a box.
All he left in our cage was brother and Mama.
"They're four weeks old. Go on and load 'em."

Our eyes got big but we didn't cry.
"Mama, are we going to die?"
We're rolling now but we don't know to where.
PLEASE GOD, help our Mama – she has to stay there.
 

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Originally posted by Holliberry@May 3 2005, 02:00 PM
They have all sorts of laws for drugs and drug dealers and we still have drug problems.  Do we buy up all the drugs so that other people cant get their hands on them?  Impossible. 

While I think it is great to want to set a standard and laws for animals care, the best thing to do is reduce demand.  If they cannot make $, they will not breed plain and simple.  Yes, its a looooong road.

I certainly hope those who dont agree realize that I dont love animals any less because I feel this way.  I just hate hate hate puppymillers more!  I cannot even bring myself to read entire articles or see those poor creatures.  And to think that those people have my $ in their hands, no way.
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that was such a good post!! i agree with you
 
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