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Originally posted by MomtwoMaltmuffins@May 3 2005, 07:04 PM
I am only going to say this once, but it is on my mind so I am going to say it.  I for one am getting sick and tired of those that ALWAYS belittle and downplay all BYB.  Digby came from a pet store, before I knew any better, and no I would never buy from a pet store again.  So far, she is now 7 years old, she is healthy except for a trachea problem, but I am unsure if she was born that way or it happened when she was very young and practically pulled my arm out of socket when she saw a rabbit for the very first time and yanked so hard to get to it.  Also Casper we dont really know the background of his Mom and Dad entirely.  So far he is healthy.

My point is that health issues can crop up in any breed from any breeder.  No doubt about it though that pups from a pet store most likely have a poor start in life especially if they came from a puppy mill.  Not every single pet sold in a pet store comes from a puppy mill, some might come from a loving home where oops two dogs got together and ooops made puppies.  I am not promoting pet stores by any means. 

It is just that those of us who have bought from so called scrupulous breeders etc and our pets are healthy keep getting bashed and bashed and bashed and I am really tired of it. 

That is all I have to say, and now I will get off my soapbox.
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I know this is a sensitive issue for you, but I respectfully disagree. Those who may warn of the possible health issues with BYB, Puppymills, Pet Stores, etc. are not stating a personal opinion, but rather the unfortunate facts. They are not speaking just to those of us who have Malts already but to the many people who come to SM looking for information before purchasing a puppy.

Here is what happens.... a pet store sells a puppy who develops a genetically based disease. Since the breeder and owner have no connection with each other, the breeder doesn't find out about the disease and so keeps breeding even though this genetic disease keeps getting passed on to more puppies. And sometimes the puppymiller does find out about the genetic disease, but because they are in it for the money, they just keep on breeding, as we learned from Adora Bella on SM regarding Sonshine.

I bought my first Maltese, Rosebud, and Kallie from a BYBs. They were both wonderful ladies. The puppies were lovingly raised in their beautiful homes. The problem, however, was that each were breeding two pet store dogs. They had not a clue about genetic diseases nor how to care for the dogs. Kallie's sire and dam were running in and out of the house in to an unfenced yard. Who knows what sort of diseases they could have brought in to the puppies that were in the house. It is a miracle she didn't get parvo or who knows what. The nice lady just didn't know any better... not did I, at the time.

In the past I had heard of people breeding champion dogs and thought to myself, "why in the world do I need a puppy with champion parents; I only want a pet." The very idea of such a thing was totally foreign, and even repulsive, to me. But now that I have learned so much about breeding, my views have changed. I think that is part of having an open mind. As we are exposed to new information, sometimes it means that we need to re-think old assumptions and open up to new truths that come our way.
 

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Originally posted by MomtwoMaltmuffins@May 4 2005, 12:01 AM
Gee so I guess it can come down to if you want to look at this way, if a human parent has lets say diabeties, they should not produce any offspring because they knowlingly are passing a gene to their son/daughter?

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Marilyn, that is why they have genetic testing.... Muscular Dystrophy runs in my family... before my cousin got pregnant she and her husband went through genetic counseling to see if it was wise for them to have children. Yes, humans do choose not to have children due to genetic diseases; I think with treatable diseases most choose to go ahead and have children, as well they should. With a devasting disease that greatly affects quality and length of life, a lot of people may not choose to do so. Still, dogs are dogs and people are people... I don't think their breeding is something that can or should be compared.... apples and oranges....

I can't help but wonder why those who complain of the BYBs being unfairly slammed often mention the money. If both a BYB and show breeder were charging the same amount, I wonder if people would still feel so protective of the BYB.

Yes, Kallie, at three years old has not had any health issues at all... KNOCK ON WOOD!!

Well, this is certainly an issue that could be debated all day on here.... I don't mean to perpetuate a "hot" topic... so I'll end it here....
 

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I just want to add my two cents here....if a BYB uses two "pet shop" puppies, how is that any better than purchasing from a puppy mill? I don't mean to insult anyone by this....I am curious why that might be an acceptable practice. In our search for breeders we came across several who I thought were "questionable"
....including a very well known show breeder! I guess my point is that we all have different levels of comfort for what we want. There are no guarantees that my dog will never have a problem. What I can guarantee is that her risks for genetic problems have been minimized through a very selective breeding program. Instead of comparing genetic testing to that done in humans, I like to use the analogy of saftey ratings in cars. You can purchase a car that exceeds all the safety standards, gets the highest ratings from consumer testing groups, and drive observing all the laws....but that still doesn't guarantee your saftey. Those extra options cost a lot of money, and as a parent with three kids, you bet I want them all....I am doing it to reduce my risk. Same reason I selected my breeder. I wanted to reduce the risk of genetically inherited diseases, conditions, and faults.
 

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Originally posted by saltymalty@May 4 2005, 08:11 AM
I just want to add my two cents here....if a BYB uses two "pet shop" puppies, how is that any better than purchasing from a puppy mill?  I don't mean to insult anyone by this....I am curious why that might be an acceptable practice.  In our search for breeders we came across several who I thought were "questionable"
....including a very well known show breeder!  I guess my point is that we all have different levels of comfort for what we want.  There are no guarantees that my dog will never have a problem. What I can guarantee is that her risks for genetic problems have been minimized through a very selective breeding program.  Instead of comparing genetic testing to that done in humans, I like to use the analogy of saftey ratings in cars.  You can purchase a car that exceeds all the safety standards, gets the highest ratings from consumer testing groups, and drive observing all the laws....but that still doesn't guarantee your saftey.  Those extra options cost a lot of money, and as a parent with three kids, you bet I want them all....I am doing it to reduce my risk.  Same reason I selected my breeder. I wanted to reduce the risk of genetically inherited diseases, conditions, and faults.
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Very well said!! I agree 100%!
 

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Back to the topic

Here is an idea, not sure if you’re going to like it. Since she is a friend, maybe you could ask her if she minds you taking her to a vet of your choice to have her examined first.
You could be out 100.00 but at least you would have some peace of mind. Oh course it dose not guarantee there will not be health issues later down the road, but that can happen with any puppy..
I saw the picture of her you posted and she looks soo sweet and adorable.
Good luck with your decision
 

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Unfortunately, the tests she would need to have done would be way more than $100. Dhodinia is going through that with Loca and I can only imagine what the bloodwork, ultrasound of heart and lungs, complete physical and a bile acids test set her back.

And that still wouldn't give Sunnydays piece of mind. There is no test to predict epilepsy or diabetes. My Lady has both and didn't show symptoms of any genetic problems until age 4&1/2.

The puppy is adorable, but did you ever see a Maltese puppy that wasn't? It's what lies within if she's poorly bred, what you can't see, that can bring huge vet bills and heartbreak later on.

Health problems down the line can happen with any puppy, as you say, but buying a puppy from a less-than-reputable breeder is a bit like playing russian roulette. As Saltymalty says, why not reduce your risk as much as possible by buying from the best breeder you can find? As the author of the Dogs for Dummies article I posted earlier pointed out, people spend more time checking out microwave ovens before purchasing one than they do a dog who will (hopefully) be a member of their family for many years.
 

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Originally posted by saltymalty@May 4 2005, 10:11 AM
I just want to add my two cents here....if a BYB uses two "pet shop" puppies, how is that any better than purchasing from a puppy mill?  <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=59609
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Yes, you're right.... about breeding two pet store puppies... about the same as buying from a pet store... the only difference is that at least Rosebud and Kallie did not live in the deplorable conditions of a puppymill and weren't trucked to a pet store in the middle of the night and put in a cage in a store, etc. Gentically, there isn't any difference but at least their start in life wasn't bad. And at least it doesn't support a puppymill... they don't get any benefit of this union of two pet store pups. But now that I know better, I will not buy from BYBs (hobby breeders) again.
 

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Originally posted by LadysMom@May 3 2005, 01:59 PM
I applaud you for thinking this decision through so carefully.

You are right to worry about socialization and other issues since the puppy was taken from her mother and litter mates so young. From what I have read some very important lessons are learned in the 6-10 week age period, including bite inhibition and socialization with other dogs.

You are also right to worry about this puppy's background. As Sisse's Mom said, a puppy from a backyard breeder or puppy mill can be carrying "genetic time bombs" that won't go off for many years. So getting a clean bill of health from the vet now is no guarentee this puppy will stay healthy. You might want to read the thread on Loca's Vet visit to see what kind of tests should be done to be reasonably sure a puppy is healthy, including blood work, and ultrasound of heart and lungs, knees checked for luxating patellas and a liver bile acids test. No matter where you live, these tests will be quite expensive. Another thing to consider is that if your friend got any sort of health guarentee, it may become void if the puppy is transferred to you.

As Sisse's Mom pointed out, the puppy you choose will hopefully be with you for many, many years. These years can be happy and carefree or they can be heartbreaking and financially devestating. Liver shunt surgery runs about $2000 and knee surgery $1500 and up. (Maltese are genetically prone to both conditions). From one who has a poorly bred Maltese, my advice would be to wait and save up for a puppy from the best breeder you can find/afford, even if it takes longer to save more money. It has been my sad experience that it's "pay me now or pay me later". My Lady is both diabetic and epileptic, has a heart murmur, severe inflamatory arthritis and allergies. I spend about $150 a month on medications and diabetic supplies alone. I have spent enough at my vet's office that they should name an examining room after Lady! I am older and an empty nester so I can (sort of!) afford this, but expenses like that could be crippling to a student or someone who wanted to have a family later on.

Worst of all, though, is the heartbreak loving a chronically ill dog can bring. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
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Just as an FYI-

Bile acid test $94.00
Ultrasound $125
Exam $45
Fecal $12
Shots $27
Albon $13
 

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I have always stayed away from the arguments here.....and I'm not going to take up tons of room here with quotes from everyone.....but I'm really on the fence on this one! I agree almost totally with both sides--Momtwomaltmuffins, K/C's Mom, Saltymalty, and LadysMom!

I guess it goes like this: I deplore and won't buy from a puppy mill or anyone supplied by one. I agree about the unknowns of a BYB puppy--even if the "breeders" are wonderful people with seemingly healthy dogs with excellent care. Not letting price influence...I would much rather have a dog with a guarantee from a good breeder that stands behind their dogs and is willing and anixous to help me. There is a lot of comfort in that.

Then....I also know some show breeders who are wonderful people who would basically give their lives and fortunes for their animals, they do all the right things including testing and using dogs for breeding with the best healthy bloodlines. They give guarantees with their puppies and keep them until they are at least 12 wks. But even their champion show dogs do get sick and have all variety of problems! Liver shunt is often not discernable until mid-live. A family of dogs without patella problems can still have off-spring who stress or injure their knees. etc, etc......

As I've said before, Frosty (who's 13), is the product of, I guess you could say, a BYB. Like K/C's Mom said, I don't intend to do that again....he was only 7 wks. when he came 200 mi. home with us. We didn't have a clue what we were doing! And his "breeder" gave us absolutely no help in figuring out how to feed and care for a baby maltese. But on the other side of it, he has been amazingly heathly! The main regret is that he wasn't socialized with his dog family long enough, and that we were totally ignorant of the Maltese breed!

There just is no guarantee a person or a dog with all the best of everything will never have a problem! We can only do the best with what we are able to learn. If "love" at first site in a not too favorable situation causes us to throw caution to the winds and take a bigger chance by getting our little love from a BYB.....what will be will be. That doesn't mean we don't know it would be a more comfortable chance if it was an actual breeder of exceptional dogs. We don't condone indiscriminate breeding, and certainly not a puppy mill type operation and do not ever want to be accused of perpetuation of them. Nothing involving starting a relationship with a pet is black and white. The rescue of little Loca for instance.
That is my point of view.
 

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Originally posted by Kallie/Catcher's Mom@May 4 2005, 06:11 AM
I can't help but wonder why those who complain of the BYBs being unfairly slammed often mention the money. If both a BYB and show breeder were charging the same amount, I wonder if people would still feel so protective of the BYB.
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Money is an issue with some of us...as it obviously is not with others. If I was wanting a "show" dog and to use the dog for purposes such as that...I can see paying 1000+ for a "show" dog.
But I absolutely cannot see the paying that much money for a "pet". Why should I care about show lines for my pet? Even if I COULD pay that much for a pet, I wouldn't. It really seems ludicrous to me. Now, if a breeder who did not have champion lines, told me that their pups were a little more because she did the genetic testing or whatever, that would be a little different. But again, when those of you continually state that byb's are not "reputable" and that the pups are just "vet-bills waiting to happen"-whether you say you are "educating" those that come to read/gather info or not...it still makes those of us who have pups from your "less than reputable breeders" feel less than adequate or inferior...like our babies don't measure up! I know mine probably wouldn't win the Eukanuba Tournament of Champions...but he has won my heart!!! Why should I have to pay a gosh-awful amount of money for that?! It is not necessary!

Why should maltese only be for the wealthy?!
I guess maybe if many of you saw the kind of house I live in, the car I drive, the clothes I wear...I guess maybe I am only mutt-worthy.


This subject wears me out!
The high and mighty attitudes anger me. There are lines that are crossed over whether some of you will admit it or not. Education is one thing..but you can educate without making other people feel inferior. -_-

(and YES, I have PMS!
)
 

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Originally posted by tlunn+May 4 2005, 04:00 PM-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Kallie/Catcher's Mom
@May 4 2005, 06:11 AM

I can't help but wonder why those who complain of the BYBs being unfairly slammed often mention the money. If both a BYB and show breeder were charging the same amount, I wonder if people would still feel so protective of the BYB.
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Money is an issue with some of us...as it obviously is not with others. If I was wanting a "show" dog and to use the dog for purposes such as that...I can see paying 1000+ for a "show" dog.
But I absolutely cannot see the paying that much money for a "pet". Why should I care about show lines for my pet? Even if I COULD pay that much for a pet, I wouldn't. It really seems ludicrous to me. Now, if a breeder who did not have champion lines, told me that their pups were a little more because she did the genetic testing or whatever, that would be a little different. But again, when those of you continually state that byb's are not "reputable" and that the pups are just "vet-bills waiting to happen"-whether you say you are "educating" those that come to read/gather info or not...it still makes those of us who have pups from your "less than reputable breeders" feel less than adequate or inferior...like our babies don't measure up! I know mine probably wouldn't win the Eukanuba Tournament of Champions...but he has won my heart!!! Why should I have to pay a gosh-awful amount of money for that?! It is not necessary!

Why should maltese only be for the wealthy?!
I guess maybe if many of you saw the kind of house I live in, the car I drive, the clothes I wear...I guess maybe I am only mutt-worthy.


This subject wears me out!
The high and mighty attitudes anger me. There are lines that are crossed over whether some of you will admit it or not. Education is one thing..but you can educate without making other people feel inferior. -_-

(and YES, I have PMS!
)
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same here
(well not the PMS part)
 

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Originally posted by LadyMontava+May 4 2005, 04:02 PM-->
Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2005, 04:00 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-Kallie/Catcher's Mom
@May 4 2005, 06:11 AM

I can't help but wonder why those who complain of the BYBs being unfairly slammed often mention the money. If both a BYB and show breeder were charging the same amount, I wonder if people would still feel so protective of the BYB.
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Money is an issue with some of us...as it obviously is not with others. If I was wanting a "show" dog and to use the dog for purposes such as that...I can see paying 1000+ for a "show" dog.
But I absolutely cannot see the paying that much money for a "pet". Why should I care about show lines for my pet? Even if I COULD pay that much for a pet, I wouldn't. It really seems ludicrous to me. Now, if a breeder who did not have champion lines, told me that their pups were a little more because she did the genetic testing or whatever, that would be a little different. But again, when those of you continually state that byb's are not "reputable" and that the pups are just "vet-bills waiting to happen"-whether you say you are "educating" those that come to read/gather info or not...it still makes those of us who have pups from your "less than reputable breeders" feel less than adequate or inferior...like our babies don't measure up! I know mine probably wouldn't win the Eukanuba Tournament of Champions...but he has won my heart!!! Why should I have to pay a gosh-awful amount of money for that?! It is not necessary!

Why should maltese only be for the wealthy?!
I guess maybe if many of you saw the kind of house I live in, the car I drive, the clothes I wear...I guess maybe I am only mutt-worthy.


This subject wears me out!
The high and mighty attitudes anger me. There are lines that are crossed over whether some of you will admit it or not. Education is one thing..but you can educate without making other people feel inferior. -_-

(and YES, I have PMS!
)
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same here
(well not the PMS part)
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Me TOO (but no PMS) Traci,you said it WAY better than I could !!!!
 

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I have never thought anyone acted or spoke "high and mighty" around here. Besides for PMS why is this a money issue for you? K\Cs mom said that she wondered if there wasnt a money issue if people would be so defensive of bad breeding? Would you? Would you rather have an unhealthy puppy because you wanted to save money, or would you rather work on the issue of everyone breeding to some sort of standard money not considered? I think that was the point she was trying to make. Lady's mom who has said over and over how much her Lady has cost her over the years, I certainly dont think she is acting high and mighty, and she has invested way more than alot of us on Lady.

I certainly have never thought maltese are for the wealthy, and I know alot of other breeds of dogs cost alot of money. There is a higher cost with anything that does not have as big a supply. For instance larger dogs who have 8+ puppies in a litter. That simply doesnt happen with malts, hence the larger $ tag to begin with.

Call me naive, but I never thought the discussion about breeding had this much to do with $. I said in another post that I agree that any and all ideas to promote healthy breeding should be within the limits to keep the costs reasonable... I have seen many maltese suspiciously advertised for FAR more than I paid for Phoebe.

edit: I want to add that I'd like to think this is about the animals and their well-being first and foremost.
 

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i'm sorry if you feel people are being high and mighty traci


i agree w/holliberry. i never really realized that the money was a big issue in the whole byb vs 'reputable' breeder debate. i always thought it was more just the quality of the dog, etc.

i too have seen poorly bred dogs selling for much more than lucy was... in fact, when i looked in the newspaper the other day,
i saw an ad for a maltese, "champion", akc registered.... $5000 :new_Eyecrazy:
 

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Originally posted by Holliberry@May 4 2005, 04:25 PM
I have never thought anyone acted or spoke "high and mighty" around here.  Besides for PMS why is this a money issue for you?  K\Cs mom said that she wondered if there wasnt a money issue if people would be so defensive of bad breeding?  Would you?  Would you rather have an unhealthy puppy because you wanted to save money, or would you rather work on the issue of everyone breeding to some sort of standard money not considered?  I think that was the point she was trying to make.  Lady's mom who has said over and over how much her Lady has cost her over the years, I certainly dont think she is acting high and mighty, and she has invested way more than alot of us on Lady. 

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I am not defensive of bad breeding...we all just have different opinions of what "bad breeding" and "reputable breeders" are. It wouldn't matter to me. My point is....if I wanted a "pet"-I would not pay 1000+ for it. Period.
If the money was not an issue...of COURSE I would want a healthy pup...but I am still not sold on the idea that only the champion bloodlines from "reputable breeders" are the only healthy pups. Like I said before...would I pay a little more if the breeder said they did the genetic testing..yes...

And just for the record, I brought no names into my original post.
It is not just my PMS feeling that people are high and mighty on here at times...because I feel this throughout the months/weeks...not just THIS week.
AND I am not the only person that feels this way.
 

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My question is why is there such a drastic price range on different breeds?

I mean people who show shitzu's incure similar costs why are maltese so much more?

I do not think it is fair to say you are not wealthy enough to own this dog. I know people who have no money who deserve a maltese more than some with millions, why? because they value the dog. They gave things up to afford it they work hard the money to care for him. I don't think maltese should cost upwards of 2000 dollars. That is insane if you are breeding for the quality of dog and betterment of the breed wouldn't you want that dog to go to the best family wether they could pay your fee or not?

Infact lets flip it. Why do breeders demand such high dollar for their animals? They want to come out ahead. I don't care if it is a show breeder, they are still aiming to achieve some kind of profit. If they weren't their dogs would go to the best home possible even if it ment the family could only afford $450.
 

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Originally posted by Kallie/Catcher's Mom+May 3 2005, 05:12 PM-->
<!--QuoteBegin-MomtwoMaltmuffins
@May 3 2005, 07:04 PM
I am only going to say this once, but it is on my mind so I am going to say it.  I for one am getting sick and tired of those that ALWAYS belittle and downplay all BYB.  Digby came from a pet store, before I knew any better, and no I would never buy from a pet store again.  So far, she is now 7 years old, she is healthy except for a trachea problem, but I am unsure if she was born that way or it happened when she was very young and practically pulled my arm out of socket when she saw a rabbit for the very first time and yanked so hard to get to it.  Also Casper we dont really know the background of his Mom and Dad entirely.  So far he is healthy.

My point is that health issues can crop up in any breed from any breeder.  No doubt about it though that pups from a pet store most likely have a poor start in life especially if they came from a puppy mill.  Not every single pet sold in a pet store comes from a puppy mill, some might come from a loving home where oops two dogs got together and ooops made puppies.  I am not promoting pet stores by any means. 

It is just that those of us who have bought from so called scrupulous breeders etc and our pets are healthy keep getting bashed and bashed and bashed and I am really tired of it. 

That is all I have to say, and now I will get off my soapbox.
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I know this is a sensitive issue for you, but I respectfully disagree. Those who may warn of the possible health issues with BYB, Puppymills, Pet Stores, etc. are not stating a personal opinion, but rather the unfortunate facts. They are not speaking just to those of us who have Malts already but to the many people who come to SM looking for information before purchasing a puppy.

Here is what happens.... a pet store sells a puppy who develops a genetically based disease. Since the breeder and owner have no connection with each other, the breeder doesn't find out about the disease and so keeps breeding even though this genetic disease keeps getting passed on to more puppies. And sometimes the puppymiller does find out about the genetic disease, but because they are in it for the money, they just keep on breeding, as we learned from Adora Bella on SM regarding Sonshine.

I bought my first Maltese, Rosebud, and Kallie from a BYBs. They were both wonderful ladies. The puppies were lovingly raised in their beautiful homes. The problem, however, was that each were breeding two pet store dogs. They had not a clue about genetic diseases nor how to care for the dogs. Kallie's sire and dam were running in and out of the house in to an unfenced yard. Who knows what sort of diseases they could have brought in to the puppies that were in the house. It is a miracle she didn't get parvo or who knows what. The nice lady just didn't know any better... not did I, at the time.

In the past I had heard of people breeding champion dogs and thought to myself, "why in the world do I need a puppy with champion parents; I only want a pet." The very idea of such a thing was totally foreign, and even repulsive, to me. But now that I have learned so much about breeding, my views have changed. I think that is part of having an open mind. As we are exposed to new information, sometimes it means that we need to re-think old assumptions and open up to new truths that come our way.
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Very well said!
 

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Originally posted by dhodina@May 4 2005, 07:09 PM
Infact lets flip it.  Why do breeders demand such high dollar for their animals?  They want to come out ahead.  I don't care if it is a show breeder, they are still aiming to achieve some kind of profit.  If they weren't their dogs would go to the best home possible even if it ment the family could only afford $450.
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i never thought of that.. but youre soo right
 

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I am on both sides of the fence here. We are definitely poor at this point in our lives and could not even afford the $800 we paid for Miko. We used our last cash to do it. We ended up with a cutie who unfortunately had 2 luxating patellas and some behavior issues. I know the patella problem could happen from any breeder and even the ones that show but just don't test the dogs. Different vets have told me that they have seen luxating patellas on dogs ranging from great breeders to pet stores pups. The behavior (dominance) issue is just lack of training at a critical time in Miko's life. I don't know, I do wish we researched the breed more. However, even if we did, we could not have afforded the $2500 for a pet quality male I have seen some great breeders charge. I know Miko does not fit the maltese standard, but who cares? We still love him all the same.

Its not very fair to then say we should just have a mutt because that's all we can afford. We already drive crappy cars, wear less than brand clothes and live in a tiny apartment. Why couldn't we have a little white furball to love and dote on? On the other hand, we couldn't afford the $2400 surgery this baby needed for his knees either (but we somehow will manage and did get him the surgery). I don't know (I should stop saying this).

Honestly, I know better now but if I was offered a little maltese puppy no matter where it was coming from, I would definitely take it!!
 
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