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Discussion Starter #1
I think we just need a separate section on the negatives that comes from getting a petstore/puppymill baby. The reason why I think it needs to be separate is because we're growing and we want as many ppl to be informed with something as important as this(w/o stepping on anyone's toes). It'll be easier for ppl to see if on this forum it says in your face "Why not to buy from Puppymill/petstore" (or something more clever). In it, everyone who has knowledge on this topic could give us their 2 cents or if your baby came from a puppy mill/petstore, tell us what you had to go through.

I don't know...what do you think? I'm trying to contribute here! HAHA
 

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I like that idea, it would make the topic easy to find and discussions in one place....

Joe, what do you think?

Judi
 

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that would be fine this way i myself dont really have to read that section since
a majority on here have bought what some of you might deem as "pet stores/ puppymills", i will say that one of the reasons i really loved this sight was because it wasnt too political and we were sharing stories about our babies
Maltese only site is the one some of you should go on if you want to get into this
puppymill/thing that seemed to be the agenda on that site.............
Spoiled maltese is about how much we love our babies and to share stories
i am seeing some newer people that have recently joined causing some controversy on a few matters those of you know who you are
so i would ask that we get back to what this site was supposed to represent
rather than constant issues that have been coming up in recent days
i have been discouraged the last few days on here as I know Joe worked very hard on this site you can see it with every new thing he does

This is my opinion if you all don't agree thats fine
Puppymill talk/ spell check talk/ isnt Maltese talk in my book
 

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Huh? I thought that puppy mills are a bad thing? I'm sorry if I'm missing the point of your post....I can say that it is not my intention to disparage anyone who has purchased a puppy from a pet store or from a broker....I think the folks that post here are only trying to provide accurate information if you'd like to investigate your pup's background. And this board does has a venue for non-Maltese related threads, so I guess if those bother you, you could ignore them. I think there may be a way of ignoring certain posts, but I am somewhat technologically challenged, so maybe someone else could offer advice. Personally, I find the variety of opions here much more stimulating than on that other site. I wouldn't change a thing about it.

On to the topic at hand, I recall reading a list of breeders who were cited for abuse and/or neglect. I don't remember where I saw it, maybe on a PETA site? Or maybe on a humane society site? Anyone know? It wasn't just puppy mills, but included non-USDA breeders as well. I wish I could remember where I saw that.....
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I'm not feeling smart right now, but I'll try to explain my point of view.

My point in suggesting that we have a separate section does partly have to do with not stepping on people's toes like how Maxi's mom is feeling right now. And I think it's safe to say that all of us on here knows by now the no-no's on the puppymill/petstore issue. But, as this place grows, we are gonna have ppl who don't realize it.

I don't think ppl are trying to be "controversial." I think they're trying to inform. And one great aspect of SM is that it is sectioned off the way it is so you can choose not to read what you dont want to read or vice versa.

In addition, ppl are going to get their babies from petstores/puppymill for whatever reason. I think it's a great cause to try to prevent it, but there are so many avenues of this topic we can explore. I can argue both points on why AND why NOT to buy at a petstore! But to argue this is like arguing pro choice or pro life and I don't wanna go there!

I guess what I'm trying to say is that we SHOULD inform everyone, BUT NOT BE CONTROVERSIAL. I just thought that in making a separate section, ppl can tell their stories to INFORM us, and not to step on toes.
Dude, I dont think i'm making sense. I might have to come back to this later. I'm feeling so dumb right now.
 

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Originally posted by ButterCloudandNoriko@Nov 3 2004, 12:06 PM
I'm not feeling smart right now, but I'll try to explain my point of view.

My point in suggesting that we have a separate section does partly have to do with not stepping on people's toes like how Maxi's mom is feeling right now.  And I think it's safe to say that all of us on here knows by now the no-no's on the puppymill/petstore issue.  But, as this place grows, we are gonna have ppl who don't realize it. 

I don't think ppl are trying to be "controversial."  I think they're trying to inform.  And one great aspect of SM is that it is sectioned off the way it is so you can choose not to read what you dont want to read or vice versa.

In addition, ppl are going to get their babies from petstores/puppymill for whatever reason.  I think it's a great cause to try to prevent it, but there are so many avenues of this topic we can explore.  I can argue both points on why AND why NOT to buy at a petstore! But to argue this is like arguing pro choice or pro life and I don't wanna go there!

I guess what I'm trying to say is that we SHOULD inform everyone, BUT NOT BE CONTROVERSIAL.  I just thought that in making a separate section, ppl can tell their stories to INFORM us, and not to step on toes. 
Dude, I dont think i'm making sense.  I might have to come back to this later.  I'm feeling so dumb right now.

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I agree with you. I like SM because it is so easy it navigate and find the type of topics you want to read. I also like it because we don't bash someone if they have a different view (like they do on MO). This is a nice, friendly website and that is the way I hope it stays. Its no fun going to a site were they yell at people for doing something they feel is wrong.
 

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Originally posted by ButterCloudandNoriko@Nov 3 2004, 01:06 PM
I'm not feeling smart right now, but I'll try to explain my point of view.

My point in suggesting that we have a separate section does partly have to do with not stepping on people's toes like how Maxi's mom is feeling right now.  And I think it's safe to say that all of us on here knows by now the no-no's on the puppymill/petstore issue.  But, as this place grows, we are gonna have ppl who don't realize it. 

I don't think ppl are trying to be "controversial."  I think they're trying to inform.  And one great aspect of SM is that it is sectioned off the way it is so you can choose not to read what you dont want to read or vice versa.

In addition, ppl are going to get their babies from petstores/puppymill for whatever reason.  I think it's a great cause to try to prevent it, but there are so many avenues of this topic we can explore.  I can argue both points on why AND why NOT to buy at a petstore! But to argue this is like arguing pro choice or pro life and I don't wanna go there!

I guess what I'm trying to say is that we SHOULD inform everyone, BUT NOT BE CONTROVERSIAL.  I just thought that in making a separate section, ppl can tell their stories to INFORM us, and not to step on toes. 
Dude, I dont think i'm making sense.  I might have to come back to this later.  I'm feeling so dumb right now.

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Well put-I understand your reasoning and agree...
I have always thought that the petstore issue is something like pro-life and other issues that are so controversial-you could debate it all day and night!!!
 

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i am seeing some newer people that have recently joined causing some controversy on a few matters those of you know who you are
so i would ask that we get back to what this site was supposed to represent


I am one of the newer (and maybe controversial!) members here and frankly I am confused. I thought this forum was created to be free from censorship? There are so many negative posts from all of you about Maltese Only and the lack of freedom of speech, critical of a moderator who tells you what you can and can't say. By restricting posts here to only "happy" things, we will be no different than MO.

Puppymills are a very controversial subject. Since Maltese are on the top 10 (#9) list of breeds sold through pet shops, how can you have a forum about Maltese dogs without ever discussing the subject, no matter what side you are on?

There is a great menu to choose from here. For someone who is only interested in what kind of shampoo to buy, for instance, or how to get mats out, that person could restrict herself to the "Grooming" section. Or for someone primarily concerned about housebreaking issues, focusing on the "Training" section would be a good idea.

Unfortunately, owning a Maltese is not always light hearted. They get sick or hurt, just like children. If a frank discussion of a health problem upsets someone, they shouldn't visit that section.

For everyone who would prefer to not know that puppy mills exist or that their pet shop puppy came from one, there is a person out there who will hopefully come here for information before getting their puppy and be spared the heartbreak that a pet shop puppy can bring.




I
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Oh shoot. I wasn't expecting this conversation to turn like this. But let me state this:

1-I don't know if you can do something to ignore a specific person's post but I don't think anyone should do it. Since I've been here, I've notice more ppl coming in and adding things in this forum that is new and enlightens us all.
If you do decide to ignore someone, you may be missing out on something important that that other person contributed that may be something you needed to know.

2-I think you can be informative without being controversial. State the facts, and let ppl make their own decisions.

3-The puppymill issue can get complicated(like, DUH!). For the ppl here who has already got their babies from a puppymill/pet store, they own them now. What can be done now?
This is why I proposed a separate section. Some ppl know, but don't want to be constantly reminded of all the "possible sicknesses" because there's already so much to worry about. This way they choose not to read it because they already get the idea. For the ppl who are new or don't know or whatever, BAM! There's a separate section all about puppymills/petstores, disaster stories....ect.

4-Is there anything else I need to say? Dont hate...Appreciate? I dont know. So far, I see nothing but contributions from EVERY SINGLE ONE. Not only do we educate each other, but we make each other laugh. I think that's what this forum is about.
 

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The issue gets complicated especially when you dont know if that is where your baby came from, i never considered my maxi ever came from a puppymill considering his price and that he is a pedigree has all his black points and most of all has a wonderful personality ...After reading that list that was posted and now having to have doubts about my babies health that is what angered me since the breeder was listed on that list
 

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Originally posted by ButterCloudandNoriko@Nov 3 2004, 01:06 PM
I'm not feeling smart right now, but I'll try to explain my point of view.

My point in suggesting that we have a separate section does partly have to do with not stepping on people's toes like how Maxi's mom is feeling right now.  And I think it's safe to say that all of us on here knows by now the no-no's on the puppymill/petstore issue.  But, as this place grows, we are gonna have ppl who don't realize it. 

I don't think ppl are trying to be "controversial."  I think they're trying to inform.  And one great aspect of SM is that it is sectioned off the way it is so you can choose not to read what you dont want to read or vice versa.

In addition, ppl are going to get their babies from petstores/puppymill for whatever reason.  I think it's a great cause to try to prevent it, but there are so many avenues of this topic we can explore.  I can argue both points on why AND why NOT to buy at a petstore! But to argue this is like arguing pro choice or pro life and I don't wanna go there!

I guess what I'm trying to say is that we SHOULD inform everyone, BUT NOT BE CONTROVERSIAL.  I just thought that in making a separate section, ppl can tell their stories to INFORM us, and not to step on toes. 
Dude, I dont think i'm making sense.  I might have to come back to this later.  I'm feeling so dumb right now.

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Very well said. I think that information is always a good thing...lack of it is a bad thing.
 

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I like the comments I have heard from everyone, my intention of SM is to cater to everyone interested in the Maltese breed, whether they own one, want to, bought it from a breeder, a puppy mill, the newspaper (like me) or heaven forbid from a cage on a side street in New York, I like it to be a happy atmosphere, one without censorship but also with limits, there are real issues with puppymills, bad health and even death that will be discussed here, there will be controversial(sp) subjects, some will get mad, sad and frustrated, some may even leave, new people will appear, the great thing to remember is the friendships made, the lessons learned, the information passed and the celebration of those closest to us, our friends, family and of course our Maltese
I believe BC&N said it best, we should INFORM and that starts with ourselves first and others second, I run another forum with almost 5000 members, growing by 100-200 a month and nearing 400,000 posts, it is very hard work, people are different, ideas are diverse but the greatest thing about growth is what people bring to it, its really awesome in my opinion, I may not psot much but I listen and I care about each and everones opinion, thoughts and ideas, even if I dont agree with each one, I just ask that others do the same

now, on the subject of a seperate forum for puppymills, i think it may be a good idea and one I will consider for awhile, it would be a great avenue to inform people about them, discuss events around them and even for those that have bought from them to share their experiences good and bad without being chastised or looked down upon but at the same time with growth we have to expect and accept that their will be those who wish to do just that, only out of their own ignorance

I think the model we have here, the members we have and will have, the attitude and the love for our Malts will make this one of, if not the best, Maltese dog forums on the internet before its over and I thank everyone for being a part of it and sharing yourself and your white furry friends with everyone else

man i get too deep sometimes
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Hey Joe! Thanks for your input.

Just wanna say, I don't want another forum all together on the puppymill issue. I think there already is one. I like the tone of this forum because it's very positive and I think it should stay inside this forum. Maybe make it apart of the "rescue" section. Just a thought....
 

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Originally posted by Joe@Nov 3 2004, 07:23 PM
I like the comments I have heard from everyone, my intention of SM is to cater to everyone interested in the Maltese breed, whether they own one, want to, bought it from a breeder, a puppy mill, the newspaper (like me) or heaven forbid from a cage on a side street in New York, I like it to be a happy atmosphere, one without censorship but also with limits, there are real issues with puppymills, bad health and even death that will be discussed here, there will be controversial(sp) subjects, some will get mad, sad and frustrated, some may even leave, new people will appear, the great thing to remember is the friendships made, the lessons learned, the information passed and the celebration of those closest to us, our friends, family and of course our Maltese 
I believe BC&N said it best, we should INFORM and that starts with ourselves first and others second, I run another forum with almost 5000 members, growing by 100-200 a month and nearing 400,000 posts, it is very hard work, people are different, ideas are diverse but the greatest thing about growth is what people bring to it, its really awesome in my opinion, I may not psot much but I listen and I care about each and everones opinion, thoughts and ideas, even if I dont agree with each one, I just ask that others do the same

now, on the subject of a seperate forum for puppymills, i think it may be a good idea and one I will consider for awhile, it would be a great avenue to inform people about them, discuss events around them and even for those that have bought from them to share their experiences good and bad without being chastised or looked down upon but at the same time with growth we have to expect and accept that their will be those who wish to do just that, only out of their own ignorance

I think the model we have here, the members we have and will have, the attitude and the love for our Malts will make this one of, if not the best, Maltese dog forums on the internet before its over and I thank everyone for being a part of it and sharing yourself and your white furry friends with everyone else

man i get too deep sometimes 

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Well said Joe!!!
 

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I think that I will add my comment here. I am an internet FREAK and before I buy anything, travel anywhere, see a movie, etc. I always check it out on the web. I think that BC&N's original idea is a good one. I'm all for having things organized and in sections. And I agree with LadysMom that we can educate BEFORE someone buys a Maltese.

When we started looking for a puppy we did lots of reasearch on the Maltese. I already knew about purchasing from a good breeder and this site helped to confirm that information. I would never have known that a Maltese should not be adopted until 12 weeks. This has been fantastic information and I don't think we would have been able to make an informed decision without it.

If you already have a puppy that came from a pet store/puppymill then you can't change that. You might have some helpful info to give someone else. Maybe you'll learn what problems could arise and what to look for.

Differing opinions make the world go 'round.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Originally posted by Joe@Nov 3 2004, 06:23 PM
man i get too deep sometimes 

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Something else I'd like to add(after rereading Joe's post). If I weren't feeling as dumb as I do today(and I know I'm not the only one who has this issue from time to time), I'd totally convey my msg as "deep" and nicely as Joe! I BE SERIOUS! I is smart even if it don't show today! LOL
 

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The only problem with having a separate puppy mill section is that Maltese from pet shops/puppy mills may have issues that need to be discussed in other sections. For instance, the chances of getting a puppy who has inherited a genetic defect like luxating patellas skyrockets in poorly bred puppies from puppy mills. A discussion about that would normally be in the "Health" section, but if the member's dog is from a pet shop, would it have to go in a separate section? Puppy mill puppies are taken away from their mother much too early and miss a very important developmental stage as a result. As they mature, a pet shop puppy may show un-Maltese-like behavior, like aggression, for instance. Often they are more fearful and difficult to socialize. If a member were having these behavior problems, would she have to post it to a special puppy mill section?

This forum has the potential to be really big, as Joe says. In order for that to happen, we must welcome people of all ages and points of view. We have had a few new people who have fostered and now are adopting Hollybelle puppies. They have much bigger issues to deal with than how to get rid of tearstains. The puppy mill theme will necessarily be a part of each of their posts. I believe they will be a wonderful asset to our forum, but why should they stay here if they have to post to a "special" section so as not to upset certain individuals?

It is obvious that the majority of posters here now are very young and have their first Maltese puppy. As these puppies mature, other issues besides housebreaking and whether or not to spay or neuter will arise. More mature members with experience with Maltese can be very valuable then.

Like it or not, owning a Maltese is a responsibility that can present some very serious issues in addition to the fun, lighter side. Puppy mills are the dark side, the exploitation of this wonderful breed for profit. Any forum devoted to frank discussion of the breed would be guilty of tunnel vision if it shied away from any discussion of puppy mills.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Hey Lady's mom! I don't think we, as members of this forum, are sheilding ourselves from this issue. I can only speak for myself, but when I got both my Maltese, I wanted to know as much as I can about not just Maltese, but any dog in general, and including this puppymill/petstore issue. However, it's my choice on how deep I want to get into this topic or any topic and I don't feel ignorant about it. It's ok.

I don't believe it's separation. I believe it's organization. Think about how many times you and other members spoke of your baby who came from a puppymill. It's not all in one place. There's nothing wrong with that. However, if we all feel passionate on this topic as you, I think we should have a section aimed on the specific topics of this issue so that it would be clear to newcomers how important this topic is.

A discussion on luxating patella would be in the health section. This issue doesn't just effect puppymill/petstore babies, it effects everyone who even owns a dog. When I proposed this idea, I had in mind for you guys who have dealt with puppymill/petstores to tell us your story. And I believe in at least 2 threads you guys listed sites of puppymills. Wouldn't be easier for EVERYONE if it was in it's own special section versus in sections I don't even remember where?

Anyway, I just thought that the msg would be conveyed easier if this forum had a specific section for it. Just a thought
.
 
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