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I don't know if this subject has been brought up before so ...

We all understand where most of the pet shop puppies come from, pet brokers and puppy mills BUT at the same time, how can we, in good faith, walk past a shop and see an adorable fur baby and not want to rescue it? do we think we are doing a favor to the pup? i mean, what if no one bought him/her what would we be sentencing this pup too?

What really happens when NOBODY purchases these lil guys? Do they go back to the PuppyMill to breed? Or are they sent somewhere else? Isn't that sentencing it to more pain and heartache, etc.?

Pls. remember, I am new so be gentle with me
.

*'we' is used as a general term*
 

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Originally posted by Violet's Mom@Aug 5 2005, 04:04 PM
I don't know if this subject has been brought up before so ...

We all understand where most of the pet shop puppies come from, pet brokers and puppy mills BUT at the same time, how can we, in good faith, walk past a shop and see an adorable fur baby and not want to rescue it?  do we think we are doing a favor to the pup?  i mean, what if no one bought him/her what would we be sentencing this pup too? 

What really happens when NOBODY purchases these lil guys?  Do they go back to the PuppyMill to breed?  Or are they sent somewhere else?  Isn't that sentencing it to more pain and heartache, etc.?

Pls. remember, I am new so be gentle with me 
.

*'we' is used as a general term*
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Good question....

When the pups aren't sold, many times the prices just get reduced. Remember that the person who raised that pup in the mill probably sold it for no more than $200. Then it goes to the middleman, and on to the pet store. If the store can't make a profit, then they will quit ordering as many pups. If you buy the pup, then there is motivation to breed that many more. If you don't then the store won't order another to take it's place. If you really want to see what is going on in the pet store industry, search the Hunte Corporation. Your tax dollars are supporting their business. They got one grant for $900,000 to broker pups to pet stores.
I think the best thing to do is to walk into the store, seek out the manager, and tell him/her in no uncertain terms that you will not buy anything in the store as long as they offer pups/kittens for sale.
If you search long enough, you will find that there are a number of puppy brokers on the web. There are also those with fancy websites who have inferior pups for sale. They are able to do this because of the general populations "buy now" mentality. People want a pup now. When they can't find one from a reputable breeder, they go on a search until they find that cute little one pictured on the web. We had a member here a few months ago who purchased a pup from a picture, but when the pup got there, it wasn't the same pup as the one in the picture. The other day, I found a site for someone with Maltese who had a number of pups available. Funny thing is that they had a picture of children with Schnauzers. I went on a serch, and I found that they had a number of breeds, just different websites for each breed.
Even if you can't make a trip, let the breeder know that you want to come to their home to visit before a purchase is made. Any reputable breeder will willingly allow this. They may want you to wait until after the pups are at least eight weeks old and have had at least one shot. Also, they may restrict you to one area of their home. This is done for the safety of their other dogs, as well as the privacy of their life. But, they should be willing to let you come visit.
 

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I have often wondered the exact same thing. I remember reading that some people simply don't go to pet stores that have puppies, but the puppies are still there.
I saved Frosty from a pet store, and I wouldn't change anything about her. She is my baby. I understand that there are increased chances of health problems. But do the pet store puppies deserve the life they are living.
I am definitely not trying to offend anyone, as I greatly appreciate everyone's info and value all the knowledge gained. I just have such a heavy heart thinking about all the poor furbabies wanting nothing more than a little love and kindness. What do we do???
 

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Violet's Mom: it's simple economics.....if no one buy from puppymills the puppymills will go out of business. Just visit Prisoners of Greed and see which situation pains you most; the puppy in the pet store or the mother/father in the cage being pee'd and poo'd on and never being out of the cage except to whelp and being fed hormones for continuous breeding and minimal health care. THEY want a little "love and kindness", too but they won't get it as long as people are buying their babies.

I know which pains ME the most! Use Tough Love and just say no to petstore puppies!
 

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Originally posted by LucyLou@Aug 5 2005, 05:22 PM
Remember If you really want to see what is going on in the pet store industry, search the Hunte Corporation.  Your tax dollars are supporting their business.  They got one grant for $900,000 to broker pups to pet stores.
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Here's the link to The Hunte Corp., the nation's larger puppy broker... what a bunch of baloney on their site....

The Hunte Corporation
 

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Originally posted by Kallie/Catcher's Mom+Aug 5 2005, 06:15 PM-->
<!--QuoteBegin-LucyLou
@Aug 5 2005, 05:22 PM
Remember If you really want to see what is going on in the pet store industry, search the Hunte Corporation.  Your tax dollars are supporting their business.  They got one grant for $900,000 to broker pups to pet stores.
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=87596
Here's the link to The Hunte Corp., the nation's larger puppy broker... what a bunch of baloney on their site....

The Hunte Corporation
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[/B][/QUOTE]

If you click on the Prisoners of Greed link above, you will see that in addition to the $900,000 government grant, there has been a $2.8 million payment. This is where your tax dollars are going. Pups are raised in large mills, then transported to the Hunte building for processing.

Now, I don't know how much you readers know about the PAWS legislation, but if this goes through, then the small hobby/show breeder will be under the same type guidelines. This means, that instead of my dogs laying around on the sofa and in my bed, they would have to be in a kennel that met government regulations. Many of the kennel clubs oppose this, as we see it as opening the dog breeding up to large places like Hunte, but causeing us to not breed enough to have pups to sell to others. It would also put some horrible restrictions on rescue groups.
I encourage you to read up on this bill, then write your congressman to oppose it. Otherwise, your next pup may have to come from a place like Hunte.
 

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AKC was hit very hard when they lost the commercial breeders over the DNA requirements. They have been working to find a way to get the commercial breeders back.

The current propaganda is full of messages to the commercial breeder.

As much as we like to think we are the most important part of AKC – we really are not; especially the really small breeders who only do 2 litters a year as a hobby. That truly is a drop in the bucket where AKC is concerned. The strategic plan is focused on the HVB’s, starting last year with the online advertising. And there has been a tremendous push to bring the field trail/hunters into AKC from the other registries and clubs. AKC offers free entries and everything.

This is from AKC’s website and I think it says it all:

How Can Commercial Breeders Benefit From The Passage Of PAWS? PAWS will benefit commercial breeding operations and brokers by bring under coverage of the AWA high volume breeders, importers and brokers who are in every respect identical to those covered by the current AWA, but who have been shielded from federal regulation by the broad interpretation of the retail pet store exemption. Some of these currently unregulated operations are very substandard, and have given all breeders a black eye. Having an enforceable industry standard for breeding and selling dogs commercially that applies to ALL commercial operations will help to combat the damaging "puppy mill" image that many commercial breeders have suffered from in the past.

The public's view of commercial dog breeders is often a negative one, but by supporting legislation that addresses the issue of standards and regulations, breeders have the opportunity to demonstrate that their operations have been meeting this level of quality all along.

The AKC very much supports all breeders who register their litters with us and, due to our own rigorous inspection program, we feel confident that those doing business with us all have operations they can be proud of and that will comply with federal law. By supporting PAWS, breeders can indicate to the general public -- their ultimate customer -- that they are dedicated to providing healthy, happy pets.

In addition to increased registrations, AKC in its current flawed thinking mode believes they will be given a contract to inspect. This pays them for the work they already perform plus gives them the legal power they never had when just inspecting records.

One of the worst parts of this is AKC believing the government will give them a monopoly business to do inspections. It will never happen. HSUS and even PETA could compete (or sue) for the right to have a piece of the “inspection pie”.

Worse yet are the outright lies AKC and Santorum are spouting regarding the difference between PAWS and the PPA by their insistence that dropping the “standards requirements” is what makes PAWS better. Technically, this is true because the wording is not in the bill. However, the burden will only be passed to USDA to write standards. The bill would not stand on its own to be implemented. The USDA has to write the regulations to implement the new law. The standards are either performance based or engineering based; either one contains some form of socialization standard, plus the housing, and facility standards.

There is no way USDA is going to write performance based standards for hobby breeders to allow them to raise dogs/cats inside a home area that cannot be hosed down/sanitized daily, and force the commercial breeders to spend $50,000 building runs, temperature controlled building separate from their house etc – and not allowing the animals inside the residence. This would generate lawsuits faster than you can say jackrabbit. It would be discrimination against the existing breeders to allow hobbyists who breed 7 litters or higher a year an economic advantage.

HSUS, PETA, and the other AR groups are badgering USDA now to remove performance standards and rule by engineering standards with other species. The entire issue of USDA regulating retail breeders will degenerate into a mass of lawsuits.

For AKC – it is all about money and they have sold us out.
 

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Originally posted by LucyLou@Aug 5 2005, 07:57 PM
Now, I don't know how much you readers know about the PAWS legislation, but if this goes through, then the small hobby/show breeder will be under the same type guidelines.  This means, that instead of my dogs laying around on the sofa and in my bed, they would have to be in a kennel that met government regulations.  Many of the kennel clubs oppose this, as we see it as opening the dog breeding up to large places like Hunte, but causeing us to not breed enough to have pups to sell to others.  It would also put some horrible restrictions on rescue groups.
I encourage you to read up on this bill, then write your congressman to oppose it.  Otherwise, your next pup may have to come from a place like Hunte.
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[/QUOTE]

If you are referring to S1139 and HR2669, the Humane Society supports it and it seems to be good for the welfare of animals. Are you sure they would be regulating people in your situation?Humane Society HR2669
 

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Subject: [pet-law] Easy PAWS
>
>
> A lot of confusing stuff has been written about PAWS. This
> is an easy-
> to-read explanation.
>
> 'PAWS' is the Pet Animal Welfare Statute of 2005, a bill in the U.S.
> Senate (S. 1139) and House of Representatives (H.R. 2669).
> The bill is
> sponsored by Senator Rick Santorum (R-PA) who previously sponsored
> the two 'Puppy Protection Acts.'
>
> PAWS is being backed by HSUS (the Humane Society of the U.S.) and
> DDAL (the Doris Day Animal League), who also backed the two PPA's.
> Surprisingly it is also strongly backed by the American
> Kennel Club.
> More recently PETA has announced that it supports PAWS.
>
> Under the current federal Animal Welfare Act (AWA) anyone who has
> over three breeding female dogs *and* sells any dogs at wholesale, is
> considered a dealer and must get a license from the USDA. Breeders
> who sell *only* retail (that is, direct to the pet home) are
> *not* dealers
> and are not required to be licensed. This 'retail exemption' is why
> hobby breeders are not covered now.
>
> If PAWS passes, you will be a dealer unless you sell 25 or fewer dogs
> *and* cats together *or* you sell six or fewer litters of
> dogs and cats
> bred or raised on your own premises and no dogs or cats not so
> bred/raised. If you sell a 'puppy back' (stud fee puppy,
> etc) or you
> take in and sell a rescue cat or dog, you must stay under the
> 25 total
> dogs/cats limit or get a license.
>
> To get a license you must pass an inspection. There are 90 pages of
> regulations. These regulations are written for farm-type raising of
> dogs. All surfaces touched by animals must be waterproof, you must
> sterilize surfaces every two weeks (one allowed way is by
> spraying with
> water at 180 degrees temp.); you must have a food preparation space
> separate from your (human) kitchen; animal pens or cages must be
> considerably larger than the standard sizes of crates used for dogs;
> puppies, as well as bitches that will whelp within two weeks,
> must be kept
> separate from other dogs; and much more.
>
> It is generally impractical to comply with the regulations in
> your home.
> You might be able to do it with a walk-in basement set-up,
> but most will
> have to build a kennel. Expect costs in the $100,000
> ballpark. You may
> need a zoning variance (you may not be able to get one) and in some
> areas, being a USDA licensed dealer will automatically make you a
> business required to collect sales tax and obey other laws
> for businesses.
>
> Being USDA licensed is harder than 'you get it right and then
> keep it that
> way.' The regulations change and each inspector has his own
> ideas about
> what's important and what compliance means. You WILL have
> violations,
> regardless of how hard you try.
>
> The AKC tells us that the USDA will have to write new regulations
> allowing in-home breeding. It won't happen because the
> large wholesale
> breeders who are already licensed don't want any new competition
> getting a low-cost set of rules. Those big dealers have a
> lot more clout
> than we do.
>
> The AKC seems to be supporting PAWS for two reasons: First, they
> believe that by making many small breeders subject to
> licensing, they'll
> get more who can meet AKC requirements for registering their dogs, so
> they'll get more registrations.
>
> Second, PAWS would double or triple the number of dealers to be
> inspected and there's no chance that the USDA will get a big budget
> increase. The AKC hopes it will be allowed to do
> inspections for them.
> Of course it would charge a fee for doing so. However if the AKC is
> allowed to do inspections, very likely HSUS would be too.
>
> The numbers allowed without licensing -- 25 animals or six
> litters sold
> (whichever is more) are much more restrictive for cats
> because of their
> different reproductive patterns. Some experts believe that
> PAWS will
> end the breeding of purebred cats by fanciers.
>
> Many dog and cat rescue groups take in and adopt out hundreds of
> animals per year. These animals are kept in ordinary (foster) homes
> during rehabilitation. In law, 'adopting' for any
> compensation is selling.
> PAWS will force rescuers to choose between building a shelter and
> limiting themselves to selling a total of 25 per year.
>
> Nonprofit status does not matter and there is no way to write an
> exception for rescue. What will actually happen is that
> incorporated
> rescues will dissolve, leaving the various foster homes and
> rescuers to do
> the best they can on their own. Unfortunately many shelters
> will allow
> only incorporated groups to take animals.
>
> Most home dog breeders will not be affected at first. However, PAWS
> will make many breeders afraid to fight new bad laws. More of the
> state and local breeder licensing laws that are proposed now
> will pass.
> Many of these have one or two litter and 6 to 12 animal
> limits without
> licensing; some require everyone selling a dog or cat to be
> licensed.
>
> HSUS has said that they consider PAWS a first step. They've
> also said
> that they believe all breeding of pets should be federally
> licensed. If
> PAWS passes, steps two, three, (and so on) will be even worse.
>
> PAWS is said to be needed because of large and growing importing of
> dogs and cats; this seems to be a complete untruth. It is
> also claimed
> that growing use of the internet allows direct retail selling without
> people being able to see how pets are bred and raised. This
> is true but
> nobody is required to buy this way and the net allows asking many
> questions and comparing sellers' answers. The *AKC* allows puppy
> advertising on its web site; if they think it's bad, why are
> they doing it?
> There is almost no commercial selling of purebred cats. The real
> purpose of the bill is to make it harder to breed cats and
> dogs at home.
>
> WE MUST BEAT PAWS. The bill is currently waiting for
> hearings in the
> agriculture committees of Congress. Sen. Santorum plans to hold a
> Senate agriculture subcommittee hearing after the August recess.
> PAWS could pass in September or October.
>
> The most important thing to do to beat PAWS is to call,
> write, or visit
> your Senators and your Representative. Tell them you OPPOSE S. 1139
> (the Senate bill) or H.R. 2269 (the identical House bill).
> Ask friends,
> family, and animal businesses to do the same thing. PAWS
> will be bad
> for dogs, bad for cats, bad for pet rescuers, bad for pet owners (who
> will have fewer choices), and bad for our country.
>
> An easy way to write your Congressmen is to go to:
>
www.congress.org

Click 'ignore this ad' near the center of the screen and type in your
zip
code where they ask for it. They'll show you your three congressmen;
click 'e-mail', 'compose your own letter' and follow the directions to
enter your message.

Please Help!

Walt Hutchens
Timbreblue Whippets

THIS MAY BE FORWARDED, COPIED, OR ADAPTED AS NECESSARY!



----
 

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Thanks LucyLu for the great post. I understand more about the PAWS thing. I have been around the hobby of breeding pets for several years. I'm against it in many ways some I dont want to get into.

I think we need to think abut this. We all agree that puppies should be raised in a home setting. Is this allowing them to be kept and raised with the family with out a total reconstruction of a room to outragous standards at the expense of the breeder. This will also cause a increase in the Price of the puppys we already have trouble affording.
 

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Originally posted by sassy14830@Aug 6 2005, 12:13 AM
Thanks LucyLu for the great post. I understand more about the PAWS thing. I have been  around the hobby of breeding pets for several years. I'm against it in many ways some I dont want to get into.

I think we need to think abut this. We all agree that puppies should be raised in a home setting. Is this allowing them to be kept and raised with the family with out a total reconstruction of a room to outragous standards at the expense of the breeder. This will also cause a increase in the Price of the puppys we already have trouble affording.
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[/QUOTE]

I wish more people would look at all aspects of this bill. People such as the breeder you work for would be affected. A number of other top Maltese breeders would be also. Considering that Maltese may just have one or two pups in a litter, we may be talking about no more than seven to fourteen pups a year for these folks. I know some do keep their dogs crated a good bit, but there are others who feel they need to be a part of the family.
In my opinion, this bill will just put the puppy business into the hands of the large commercial breeders who think nothing of having a sterile kennel setting to raise their dogs.
Also, my major concern is that it will put reputable rescue groups out of business.
 

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DOES THIS SOUND LIKE THE DOGS WILL BE ALLOWED TO BE A PART OF YOUR HOME? To get a license you must pass an inspection. There are 90 pages of
> regulations. These regulations are written for farm-type raising of
> dogs. All surfaces touched by animals must be waterproof, you must
> sterilize surfaces every two weeks (one allowed way is by
> spraying with
> water at 180 degrees temp.); you must have a food preparation space
> separate from your (human) kitchen; animal pens or cages must be
> considerably larger than the standard sizes of crates used for dogs;
> puppies, as well as bitches that will whelp within two weeks,
> must be kept
> separate from other dogs; and much more.
>
> It is generally impractical to comply with the regulations in
> your home.
> You might be able to do it with a walk-in basement set-up,
> but most will
> have to build a kennel. Expect costs in the $100,000
> ballpark. You may
> need a zoning variance (you may not be able to get one) and in some
> areas, being a USDA licensed dealer will automatically make you a
> business required to collect sales tax and obey other laws
> for businesses
 

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This would for sure effect the breeder I work for and other breeder of other breeds who are making a huge impact in the improvement in there breed. I know I heard a conversation about a citylaw being passed setting outrageous regs on breeders in Austin, Tx. I need to look in on this more. Good thing my employer lives just a block from the city limits. Its sad the effect this will have on all animals.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Originally posted by sassy14830@Aug 6 2005, 01:42 AM
This would for sure effect the breeder I work for and other breeder of other breeds who are making a huge impact in the improvement in there breed. I know I heard a conversation about a citylaw being passed setting outrageous regs on breeders in Austin, Tx. I need to look in on this more. Good thing my employer lives just a block from the city limits. Its sad the effect this will have on all animals.
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thank you for the article LL.
I wanted to also let you guys know that i read somewhere that (i'm paraphrasing here but the ending is actual) once the petstores stop buying from said mill, the mill owner realizes the female producing the pups are inferior and then kills the dog.
I mean, regardless what we do, these dogs, be it the parent(s) or the pups, are still suffering.

It's a no win situation and it makes me truly sad.
 

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Originally posted by Violet's Mom+Aug 8 2005, 11:37 AM-->
<!--QuoteBegin-sassy14830
@Aug 6 2005, 01:42 AM
This would for sure effect the breeder I work for and other breeder of other breeds who are making a huge impact in the improvement in there breed. I know I heard a conversation about a citylaw being passed setting outrageous regs on breeders in Austin, Tx. I need to look in on this more. Good thing my employer lives just a block from the city limits. Its sad the effect this will have on all animals.
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=87710

thank you for the article LL.
I wanted to also let you guys know that i read somewhere that (i'm paraphrasing here but the ending is actual) once the petstores stop buying from said mill, the mill owner realizes the female producing the pups are inferior and then kills the dog.
I mean, regardless what we do, these dogs, be it the parent(s) or the pups, are still suffering.

It's a no win situation and it makes me truly sad.
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[/B][/QUOTE]

I wish more people would take the time to truly look into this PAWS bill. It doesn't hurt the big commercial breeder, or the mills who are already selling wholesale to pet stores. After the smoke clears, if this bill passes, they would have a stronger hold on the pet industry, as many of the others (truly reputable show breeders) would either quit breeding, or limit the number of litters even more--and some of you know already how hard it is to get a good dog from a show breeder.
In my case, my concern is that it would put many of the rescue organizations out of business.

As for the mill pups, many are sold at auction to other breeders. If you continue to read on the puppymill sites, you will find horror stories of this. And, sadly, some are actually kiled when they are of no value to the breeder. I'm for boycotting any store that sells animals. If they can't even sell enough dog food to stay open, they can't sell animals either.
 

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I have heard (don't know if it is true) that any puppies left over are bought back by the broker and sold for god knows what use--breeding, research or worse. It makes it even harder to think of leaving that poor puppy in the cage, it is just a nightmare situation all the way around.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Originally posted by Quincymom@Aug 8 2005, 05:16 PM
I have heard (don't know if it is true) that any puppies left over are bought back by the broker and sold for god knows what use--breeding, research or worse. It makes it even harder to think of leaving that poor puppy in the cage, it is just a nightmare situation all the way around.
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[/QUOTE]


 

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Here is a link to the US Humane Society's website that answers questions about the proposed PAWS legislation:

http://www.hsus.org/pets/pets_related_news...vents/paws.html

The article also debunks the myth that rescue groups will be affected by its passage.

Will PAWS have a detrimental effect on rescue organizations or animal shelters?

No. Some commercial breeders and organizations who profit from the high-volume sale of dogs and cats are using scare tactics to confuse caring people in the rescue community into taking a position against the PAWS legislation. These groups claim that if the bill passes anyone who rescues more than 25 dogs a year will need a federal license. This is not true. We hope those who work to rescue animals will not be fooled by these tactics. To oppose the PAWS bill is to oppose improvements in the treatment of animals at large-scale commercial breeding operations.

The PAWS bill deals strictly with businesses who sell dogs and cats. Non-profit rescue groups who charge an adoption/donation fee are not selling animals.


There are two more clickabale links on the USHUS page with more information on why PAWS won't affect rescue groups under the "Learn More" caption.
 
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