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Hey all,

We've been experiementing with our girls the past few months. We recently took Chanel (our oldest) in and had 8 teeth pulled, she is WAAAAYYY more playful, and her breath went from horrid to plesant. We've totally been spoiling them with cooked chicken and steak and leftovers probably for just about ever.

Anyway, recently we've really cut back on the people food and meats, and have been trying to make them stick mostly to hard dog food. They don't seem thrilled about it when it comes time to eat, but the rest of the day they seem to have a blast.

Anyway, right now their favoirite is some random Purina stuff (we've tried like 8 kinds) I've been reading up on the raw food diet. Sounds kinda gross, and I'm not sure how it would work with our girls...

any suggestions???

THANKS!!
 

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the idea of giving raw meat to a maltese kinda puts me off, though i've heard good things about raw food diets. i know a german shepherd show breeder who swears by it, but then they're german shepherds..
 

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Sir N was on the barf diet and loved it and positively THRIVED on it. Then Little C came along. She also loved crunching down on raw meat and bones. HOwever, she refused to eat her veggies, beef gave her the runs, and she doesn't like fruit. She only wanted chicken. That was not healthy for her so we ended up back on dry dog food. It's always available in a bowl. However, we are also thinking about going vegan. I am already, but I'd like for the dogs to be. Sir N is all for it. He LOVES veggies and fruits and grains. Little C loves grains, but still won't touch fruits or vegetables in any shape or form. They both love tofu and soy milk and do mad dances of every time they see me take it out of the fridge because they know they'll get some, too. I think Sir N will become vegan. However, because she is so picky, I'll probably have to keep LIttle C on dry dog food even though I hate the stuff with a passion. Sir N is already at the point where he eats very little of the stuff....usually only when I've been so busy that *I* haven't eaten much, so naturally, he isn't getting much out of the fridge.
 

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I have heard people rave about raw food diets and others warn about e coli, salmonella, etc. People seem to be passionately for or against the BARF diet.

Glamourdog, have you looked in to Innova's new product, EVO? It supposedly has the benefits of raw without the contamination risks and comes with the ease of buying something already prepared.

They have seen wonderful results in diabetic dogs so I switched Lady to it about a month ago. I am very, very happy with the results, her blood sugar, etc.

http://www.naturapet.com/display.php?d=inn-home
 

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I ordered some samples of Innova evo, and Honest Kitchen raw food, they have 3 kinds-embark, force, and verve. I'll see how it goes. Right now I'm home-cooking, and also using solid gold, and eaglepack kibble to supplement.
 

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Robyn(cookiecat) is all for the "raw" diet.its no longer called the barf diet.I will im her and see if she wil give some input on this subject,as she is well versed on the matter.
 

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Originally posted by LadysMom@Jul 15 2005, 10:28 AM
Here's link to an article explaining the potential dangers of salmonella, e coli and other bacteria from feeding a raw food diet.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_...67/ai_n13788104
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Just a little tidbit here,

Salmonella is also found in dry foods. As a matter of fact the FDA was trying to crack down on Pet food manufacturers for Salmonella. The Manufacturers lobbied that it was impossible to eradicate salmonella from the food, even though it is a cleanliness issue. (I will find the FDA article if anyone needs it)

That said All my dogs eat a raw food diet. My dogs sizes are 4.8lbs, 7lbs, 8lbs, 12lbs, 14lbs & my Eskie who is 28lbs. They do outstanding. We no longer have dentals done. A great way to introduce them are chicken or duck necks. Dogs don't really need veggies, and they actually do not need grains or fiber at all.

I am not vehemently for or against it, I do believe that we all do whats best for our furkids. This article is long but does explain the nutritional differences between dog & humans quite well. I always kind of thought that the pet food industry tailored dog foods to our idea of what was healthy, and that we would pick up a bag & see, chicken, sweet potatoes, blueberries, brown rice etc. and think WOW thats healthy. But who for is the question? We have lustrous coats, clean pearly teeth, supple paw pads and bright shiny eyes. No tear stain issues etc. I get comments all the time, alot on my 12 year old black pomeranian who gleams with health.


Here is the article. If anyone is interested I will most certainly post my diets for my dogs here.

The Nutritional Differences Between Dogs and Humans
By: Jane R. Bicks, D.V.M.

Most of us consider our dogs to be members of the family,
which makes it easy to forget they have different dietary
needs than we do.

Few can resist a dog begging for table scraps, especially
if it is a puppy. But no matter how human your dog behaves,
whether it wakes you up with a wet kiss, expresses opinions
about your friends, or cons you into giving up your side
of the bed, it's digestive system and metabolism are uniquely
canine.

Some specific differences between dogs and humans include:

* Amino acid requirements, and thus protein requirements,
are different for dogs than for humans. Human adults require
8 essential amino acids, and babies need 9, while adult dogs
require 9 amino acids, and puppies need 10.

* While vitamin C is considered an essential vitamin
in humans because we can't make it and must have it, it's
not considered essential for dogs. They form vitamin C in
their liver.

* Humans need to monitor their cholesterol levels, which
generally rise in proportion to the amount of fat or meat in
the diet. However, although a dog's cholesterol levels can
become abnormally elevated, a meal high in saturated
fats is just what they need.



* Dogs must have meat in their diet to be in optimum health.
A dog's sharp canine teeth are evidence of their need to
tear apart raw meat, and thus their requirement for meat.
Humans, on the other hand can eat a vegetarian diet with
high grain, and maintain optimum health.

* Dogs can't handle as much cereal as humans. One reason
is that humans and dogs differ in the amount of enzymes they
make that are needed to break down carbohydrates. Dogs
have about 80% less enzymes to break down carbohydrates
than people do.

* Dogs can't handle large amounts of fiber, while humans
can. When dogs are fed large quantities of fiber, it can result
in constipation, excessive stool output, decreased nutrient
digestion, and poor visual appearance.



* Since a dog's sense of smell is so much more sensitive than
a person's a dog is less likely to eat spoiled or rancid food
than we are.

* A puppy has a greater need to drink the mother's first
milk (colostrum) than does a newborn child. Colostrum
delivers immunity to newborns, as does the placenta. A
child gets a great deal of immunity from the placenta, while
a puppy gets less; thus the more important colostrum is
to a puppy.

* A dog's milk contains different nutrients than a human's
milk; thus a puppy can't be fed a baby formula.



* A newborn puppy requires more iron and copper than a
human infant does.

* A human athlete will "carbohydrate load" before an
event, while a dog athlete (sled dog) will be given high
quantities of fat just before and during the event.

* A baby can begin solid food at four months, while a
puppy can begin as early as six weeks.

* The gestation period for humans is nine months, while
a dog's is two months. That means that a human's nutritional
pregnancy demands last way longer than a dog's.


* While chocolate can have negative effects on dogs
and humans, they are different. Excessive chocolate eating
can make a human fat and, because of the caffeine,
nervous. Chocolate, even in small amounts, can kill a dog.

Most nutritionists agree that a human diet should not contain
more than 15% protein. While the protein requirement in
dog food depends on the amount of fat, amino acids, and
other nutrients in the food, a minimum of 18% protein
is a safe requirement for an adult food. However, as
with humans, a dog's nutrition is based upon adequate intake
of three main ingredients: protein, carbohydrates, and fat.


Robyn
and the kids
 

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Helpful sites -

Whats really in Dog food,

http://www.animalprotectioninstitute.com/79.htm

Phenobarbitol in Pet food, this article makes reference to CVM which is the FDA's center for veterinary medicine.

http://www.judyshealthcafe.com/articles/fdapento.html

And last but not least this is the FDA's Compliance order for the petfood industry & Salmonella based on testing and known organisms in food.
(I highlighted it)
In a case involving salmonellosis diagnosed in a mother, daughter and the family dog, the Milwaukee Health Department traced the cause to a dry dog food, and a recall resulted. Following the recall, *CVM* initiated an abbreviated inspection and analytical survey of a representative number of manufacturers of finished dry dog food products to explore an industry claim that it is an impossibility to manufacture this type of product without Salmonella contamination.

They studied 8 manufacturing plants, and 9 rendering plants and found Salmonella in only two cases. But the pet food industry is still balking. The major issue starts with Salmonella infected feed in chicken meal, and protein meals fed to animals. This can affect ALL foods. The only known way to really eliminate it is through a process called irridiation (sp)

http://www.cce.cornell.edu/food/fsarchives.../irridiate.html

But their are health risks with that also. So its a crap shoot. Dogs can get salmonella from many sources, eating something outside, mouse poop, bird poop, etc. Healthy animals aren't usually affected. Sick, elderly, immune compromised animals are.

I just wanted to say that as a pet owner I wouldn't willingly compromise the safety of my dogs. Everything I do, and have researched thouroughly is in their best interest. We have 5 vets locally and 2 out of the 5 recommend the raw diets. We have vet here in VT from tufts, and he focuses on nutrition, I get a lot of my information from his website. http://www.crvetcenter.com
I have also read Dr. Pitcairns books, and others. I think that we do whats best for our dogs in our situation. The only think I vehemently oppose is commercial diets like Purina, Hills, Pedigree, and because I know what they are putting in their foods. Money goes to advertising, and crapola goes to the dogs. Blech! The animal protective institute (The first link) has a site about what to look for when selecting a dog food.

Robyn
 

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Thank you for the very interesting article on feeding dogs. I really appreciate it. I find it very hard to try and figure out what is best for my furry kids and what you did is give me some guidlines to follow. I am hoping that the chicken soup one is a good one. I think what I liked best about the article is that it explained in plain terms what the differences were in things like meat meal and chicken meal and so on. Thanks again and I am going to print it out and save it to read over again.
Mary
 

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i just think that homecooked is the safest. dealing with BARF is just too scary for me!! uncooked chicken and stuff contaminating your kitchen, you'd have to be REALLY careful.

and about the teeth...try bully sticks. you should even try selling the 3 foot sticks in your shop!!
 

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I have been feeding raw for about 2 years. I vary their meats and this is basically what they get

Chicken, Chicken bones, Organ meats & veggies
Turkey, Turkey bones, Organ Meats & veggies

Beef heart, Kidney, liver

Duck Necks, Chicken Necks, HUGE turkey necks.

Veggies I usually give are zucchina, Okra, Summer squash, butternut squash, peas, & carrots

To be honest I buy a gorund mix for my seniors with less teeth. My youngsters and one senior do get the whole bones & Meat. I Have a freezer I store everything in. I put everything I am going to feed for 3 days in a tub in the freezer & dole it out at the time. For me if it ain't easy I won't do it. They do awesome on it and my vet is always commenting on how gorgeous my dogs are. :eek:)

And truly I am laaazy! LOL

Robyn
 

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Do you add supplements at all? How often do you feed them the chicken necks, daily?

Do you puree the vegies?

One reason I did not continue as it was alot of work, or the way I was doing it was! Packaging meals up into daily portions.
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The only supplements I give are a senior joint supp for my seniors.

I buy a product called Oma's Pride. I buy the 5lb tubes and its all done for me and I think it is cheaper than buying at the store, and dry food to since its about 1.57 per lb. Example Wellness - is 10.99 for 6.6 lbs which is 10.99/6.6 or 1.66 per pound. Flint River is about 18.00 for a 10lb bag or 1.80/lb.

So in my complete laziness I Buy 15 lbs duck necks, 5lb tubes of Turkey or chicken ground mix. (Has everything in it Ground bone, organ meat, muscle meat & veggies) and a 10lb bag chicken necks. You can buy it in 2lb tubes for a maltese thats all you'd need. And FYI they are a human grade butcher shop, so they are tested for salmonella and e coli and others, and are regulated by USDA & FDA.

I just defrost and keep it (Up to 5 days) Then I just hand out Chicken Necks in AM and Duck NEcks in PM along with ground. I am feeding 6 dogs though! So I go through a lot more. I do have to seperate the chicken necks into smaller bags and defrost as I need them. Thats it. Its actually pretty simple. My dogs sit in the morning and I hand out breakfast. They all go off to their respective places. Haha

In the evening 3 get ground 3 get Duck. Perty simple.


Oh and they all have the pearliest white teeth. Even my oldies have pretty teeths. What they have left - lol - but they were on Dry for their lives. My Eskie has had dentals twice a year, and has still lost a majority of his teeth. Since on the raw we haven't had a dental for him. They all have really good breath too.

Though one small downside is that their nails appear to need clipping more often? I assume its all the whole foods they eat. But My pug goes into hysterics when I clip her so I had to start dremel'ing once a week.

Robyn
 

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Marilyn, have you tried giving your kids chick peas for snacks? I buy a bag of dry beans, soak & cook them and freeze them in ziplocks. You can just take out one or two as needed and run them under water to defrost them. Lady goes crazy for this high fiber, super healthy treat! The fresh ones (not the canned) have such a great nutty flavor.

A word of warning about the EVO. Don't feed what the package recommends as it's way too much. At 9 pounds, Lady could get up to 3/4 of a cup. Thanks to Marilyn, I knew to only feed her 1/4 cup (she also gets cottage or ricotta cheese and veggies). I weighed her at my vets a few weeks ago and she was 9 pounds even. I can't imagine how huge she would have been on 3/4 cup!
 

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Originally posted by MomtwoMaltmuffins@Jul 17 2005, 05:43 PM
Thanks so much Robyn.  I have never seen duck necks here, only chicken and turkey.  I dont think they sell Oma Pride here either.  Similar products I guess though.

So do you add vegies to their meals and how do you prepare the veggies, put them through a food processor then freeze portions?

The tubes I have seen here, and another brand, they came in large patties, overall they were expensive, anything prepackaged here is more expensive than even the better quality dry food 
  It is more economical if I were to buy from scratch, then finding the right sources for meats etc.

Right now the kids are outside gnawing on some raw beef soup bones

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The marrow bones are a really great treat for them and they love them! They can be rich so we only give those about once a month. For Veggies I usually do minimal - Fiber & Carbs are not a really needed nutrient for dogs, excess fiber is just excreted in stool, and just makes more stool output. Dogs don't really need fiber the same way humans do. But a model carnivore diet does include veggies. Wild canines will eat the stomach content of herbivores. Adding veggies is easy, if you have a finicky veggie eater than just grate up a zucchini and mix it right in. Green Beans, Carrots (Though only a few since they are really high in sugar) Okra, summer squash etc. I would say for a maltese you would need about 2 tablespoons per day of veggies. Spinach is another good one.

I believe you can do a search to see if Oma's is near you. Or they will ship to your house depending on location. You can also do your own raw diet. Keep in mind if you don't add bones that you need to add calcium. Muscle meat is high in Phosphorus and dogs need calcuim from the bone to keep the ratio in check.

That is something that always just made sense to me. A whole chicken leg, or duck neck etc has all the balance that dog food companies use as a model. Its interesting. Even though are animals are domesticated they are often very old breeds. That survived thousands of years (Like the Pug) without dry kibble. Dry kibble came about in the early 20th century. There are many countries where the cost of kibble is still so enormous that dogs are kept on a carnivore diet, France is an example especially around the southern provences, switzerland, is another. I believe in australia - foods like Innova are astronomical.

I guess I model my dogs diet more like a "prey" diet. Meaning their foods are varied (Sometimes it is whatever is cheapest) But they get so many nutrients from the variety they eat. Another benefit is that for seniors muscle meat is high in Creatinine (Did I spell that right) which is actually sold as a joint supplement! But found in muscle meats in its natural state. It all fascinates me, but again I do take the easy road. I used to prepare my own twice a month and freeze the portions. To do that I would buy several pounds of ground turkey, add whatever veggies, calcium supplement, flax seed & either beef heart, kidney or liver. Mix up and freeze. But now I opt for a pack of chicken legs, or necks and the dogs get the benefit of a dental every day.


I have to say I do shy away from any chew toys for the dogs like Bully sticks, Rawhide, pig ears etc. Mostly because of preservatives. And I can't get past the ewwww factor either LOL!


I really believe to start a raw diet research is important and also talking with others who do it. I started it on the advice of a veternarian who has always advocated a raw diet. But it was a leap for me. I worried about bones with my little dogs, but chicken bones (uncooked) are actually quite soft, the legs & necks they crunch right through. Also carnivores eat different than we do, they don't grind their food in their mouth. They Bite/swallow. We "predigest" by chewing. They have enzymes that break down the foods in their stomach. They don't have grinding teeth, they have ripping & tearing teeth. I think that is the most interesting point. That even though dogs are domesticated their make-up & nutritional requirements still reflect those of their wolf anscestors.

I think Innova is certainly on the right track in coming out with a food tailored to carnivores. :D

Robyn
 

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This all sure makes sense to me.......even though raw sounds kind of messy for some reason.

Unfortunately, with Pico's liver problem I've been told I can't give him as much protein or fat as normal. So my home cooked recipes include veggies and oatmeal along with ground cooked chicken and boiled chopped eggs. It is about 4 hours of work once a month to prepare 31 days worth of meals which I package in snack bags and freeze. I can't imagine doing that for more than one dog!

My hat is off to you giving a raw diet to 6 dogs.
 

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Originally posted by MomtwoMaltmuffins+Jul 21 2005, 08:34 PM-->
<!--QuoteBegin-LadysMom
@Jul 18 2005, 08:40 AM
Marilyn, have you tried giving your kids chick peas for snacks? I buy a bag of dry beans, soak & cook them and freeze them in ziplocks. You can just take out one or two as needed and run them under water to defrost them. Lady goes crazy for this high fiber, super healthy treat! The fresh ones (not the canned) have such a great nutty flavor.

A word of warning about the EVO. Don't feed what the package recommends as it's way too much. At 9 pounds, Lady could get up to 3/4 of a cup. Thanks to Marilyn, I knew to only feed her 1/4 cup (she also gets cottage or ricotta cheese and veggies). I weighed her at my vets a few weeks ago and she was 9 pounds even. I can't imagine how huge she would have been on 3/4 cup!
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Marj is that all you are feeding Lady, just 1/4 cup a day in total????
Or do you feed her twice a day 1/4 cup each time so a total of 1/2 cup?

Oh, heavens, Lady would have had me arrested for animal cruelty by now if I were only feeding her 1/4 cup a day!

She gets 1/4 cup of EVO twice a day, plus plain yogurt and ricotta cheese and lot's of green beans in her Twist and Treat.

Sorry my post was confusing but Lady appreciates you looking out for her!

I feed Digby 1/4 cup twice a day, so she gets a total of 1/2 cup daily.

I hope you are feeding her more than just 1/4 cup daily!

The feeding instructions say from 3- 10 lbs - to feed 1/4 cup - 3/4 cup per day.
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Originally posted by MomtwoMaltmuffins@Jul 21 2005, 08:57 PM
Thanks Robyn

There are similar brands to Oma's we have here, which contain a mix of ground meat, bones, organ meats, fruits and veggies.  The store I normally buy Digby's food she has a few options.  Just the meat alone without the veggies or fruit.

So you feed yours the necks every day plus the Oma's?

I did not realize the veggie mix would be so small only 2 tblsp per day.  You add veggies too every day along with the Oma?

Digby was on raw before, but not for very long.  But now that they have the prepackaged frozen foods available it does make it easier that is for sure.

Do you add any supplement such as Nupro?  Or just oils?

Most of the people that I talk to here, have large dogs on raw, so it is nice to hear someone with small dogs feeding raw, as I would think the nutritional needs would vary. Thanks for all your info, you are very helpful.  I hope you do not mind me picking your brain
  As you can tell I am still interested in the raw.  It was hard to travel with, but now that Innova has come out with EVO, at least if I did go the raw route, on holidays I could switch them to EVO temporarily.  Also too if we have to leave them with someone while we are on holidays (if they cannot come with us
  ) I think people would prefer to feed them the kibble.
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I don't give any supplements at all. Just my seniors and its a joint supplement. (Glucosamine, perna Mussle & shark Cartilidge) Dogs manufacture their own vit c in their liver. They just need the right amino acids to do it. If you are feeding a proper raw diet with bones, then their is no need for calcium. Muscle meat is high in phosphorus & bones are high in Calcium. That is the most important ratio. Of you aren't feeding bones than yes you do need to add a calcium supplement.

I do not add veggies to every meal. They get Oma's in the AM which has veggies in it. That is usually sufficient. In the PM they get duck necks which is for "exercise" and gnawing. They LOVE them. I prefer them to chicken necks because they eat the chicken necks so fast. I also switch them up a lot. SO it varies. Sometimes its chicken necks for breakfast & oma's ground for dinner. I do give them a variety as that models the prey diet most closely. I have not had any of the dogs have any sort of stomach upset/diarreha since I have fed them a raw diet. Of course now that I said it...... haha!

Everyone goes to their designated spot and chews & crunches. FYI - I have never seen bones in their poops. And with 6 dogs I scoop daily. The reason why is that dogs have the enzymes in their stomachs to break down the bones quite nicely. My puppers at about 4 lbs would chow right through a chicken leg. I just ordered them some quail. So they will get a big kick out of that I am sure.

I find the information regarding salmonella & e coli interesting. But lets think of what our dogs really eat when left to their own devices. Deer poop, cat poop, mine have eaten mice & birds when they have come across them, garbage, old food on a sidewalk, rained on dead worms, spiders, flies, moths. My pup ate a june bug. (EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWWW) Whenever there has been something "dead" in our yard I am chasing around dogs left and right and they make passes to each other to keep away from mommy! LOL - then of course they find that same stinky spot & everyone takes a turn rolling in it so I am forced to spend the rest of the day (or night) bathing everyone. Dogs are natural scavengers & carnivores. I just let 'em be who they are. Yep - its a gross out factor for me. But they are happy & healthy!
 
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