Maltese Dogs Forum : Spoiled Maltese Forums banner

1 - 20 of 95 Posts

·
Administrator
Joined
·
694 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I have a suggestion about the breeders area but before I make it, can you guys answer this question:

Who don't you want reading the information in the breeders area and why shouldn't they be?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,959 Posts
My opinion is that if there is anyone you don't want reading what you have posted then you shouldn't be posting it.

I have found the breeder section to be invaluable and it is how I hooked up with my breeder. It shouldn't be a forum for airing personal grievances with breeders but annecdotal information (and that's pretty much all any of us can provide) can be very helpful.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,246 Posts
Yung, I don't have an answer, but just some feedback.

I'm on a small forum that does product testing to see if certain food products are telling the truth about their ingredients. Because the forum owner doesn't want to place himself in a position of liability, he has a private thread that can only be accessed by a password which he provides to people who have been on the forum for a while, and have had a certain number of posts.

I know that doesn't answer your question, sorry.

Nothing can stop a person from creating a fake id and making believe they are someone else. So, even in that other forum I am on, someone who is looking to cause trouble will find a way. So far, it hasn't happened. But the posts in that private section are very respectful and never attack, just state test results and move on because the purpose is to help people avoid the tainted products, not to bash the company. (which probably doesn't even know that their ingredients aren't free from contamination.)

Just throwing out some thoughts because I don't know what to think: Perhaps a breeder forum should be limited to paid members and non-breeders? But then, the breeders will say that is unfair, as they cannot defend themselves, right? On the other hand, if you let everyone in a breeder discussion forum and people are encouraged to post their negative and positive experiences, and the breeders are given a chance to defend themselves, perhaps the cream will rise to the top and prospective Malt owners won't get burned as often, and the owners who are just nitpicky and don't really have a serious issue with a breeder will be revealed. It's a tough call. I don't envy you.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17,659 Posts
I just want to reiterate again that we adhere to a strict policy of only allowing members with firsthand experience to comment on breeders being discussed.

We have had a problem in the past with members judging a breeder by their website alone or hearsay. We've upset a few breeders as a result and rightfully so.

SM also has to be protected legally. If false statements are made here that tarnish a breeder's reputation, libel and slander lawsuits could result.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,223 Posts
Just throwing out some thoughts because I don't know what to think: Perhaps a breeder forum should be limited to paid members and non-breeders? But then, the breeders will say that is unfair, as they cannot defend themselves, right? On the other hand, if you let everyone in a breeder discussion forum and people are encouraged to post their negative and positive experiences, and the breeders are given a chance to defend themselves, perhaps the cream will rise to the top and prospective Malt owners won't get burned as often, and the owners who are just nitpicky and don't really have a serious issue with a breeder will be revealed. It's a tough call. I don't envy you.

I don't see the point of this at all. Paid members are long time members for the most part. I always saw the breeder forum as being perhaps most useful to the newbies. What would be the point excluding new people from access to the info?

Also, why only non-breeders. If you look at the posts in the breeder section of the forum so many of the best ones have come from breeders. They answer questions about the choices and decisions they make.

On the occasion when someone has criticized breeders the less ethical ones have "sent someone else to speak in their defense." There would be no way to police who was a breeder and who was not. And what makes someone a breeder afterall, someone who is on the AMA list? or anyone who has ever bred a litter? We have a couple of active members who were once show breeders, but haven't bred in many years. Would they qualify?

Yung, I am not sure what the issue is here. It is hard to answer without understanding what proposal you might be considering. Without further explanation, however, I see no benefit and many drawbacks in limiting access to this section of the forum.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,387 Posts
Don't change the Breeder section at all. Basically all the policing gets done by SM members.
Limitations would not serve any purpose.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,327 Posts
I have a suggestion about the breeders area but before I make it, can you guys answer this question:

Who don't you want reading the information in the breeders area and why shouldn't they be?

I envision the Breeder Section to be a research tool and source of good information, not a cheap gossip column, and therefore want the entire world to be able to read and post there.

Yung, is there another reason driving the question that I'm missing?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,916 Posts
My opinion is that if there is anyone you don't want reading what you have posted then you shouldn't be posting it.

I have found the breeder section to be invaluable and it is how I hooked up with my breeder. It shouldn't be a forum for airing personal grievances with breeders but annecdotal information (and that's pretty much all any of us can provide) can be very helpful.
I like what puppymom said here. :thumbsup:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,288 Posts
If its not public its really not of much use. Typically people who come asking questions are not the "regulars" but new people to the breed looking for pups.
I'm with Marj - we already have the rule of first hand only and I think that's just fine. To be honest, I'm more uneasy if nobody ever has a negative thing to say about the breeder...it becomes an almost cultish following. No breeder can please everyone...they're human, not gods.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,223 Posts
If its not public its really not of much use. Typically people who come asking questions are not the "regulars" but new people to the breed looking for pups.
I'm with Marj - we already have the rule of first hand only and I think that's just fine. To be honest, I'm more uneasy if nobody ever has a negative thing to say about the breeder...it becomes an almost cultish following. No breeder can please everyone...they're human, not gods.
:thumbsup:
Absolutely agree with this and wanted to highlight it since it seems to lead back to my very strong conviction that it is very unwise to try to presume that we can offer anything other than guidance to those who may be searching for a puppy. Every single individual needs to research, educate themselves and come to their own conclusions about what they want and expect from a breeder. In doing so they also should understand that breeders are not perfect and more importantly the puppies they produce are not manufactered to conform to a mold. Every breeder is unique, and every puppy is as well. While there are many special examples of each, their will always be flaws.

Sorry for sliding off topic there for a second. But to bring it back to the discussion at hand, I will reiterate my position that this part of the forum should remain open.
 

·
Membership Suspended
Joined
·
2,839 Posts
Don't change the Breeder section at all. Basically all the policing gets done by SM members.
Limitations would not serve any purpose.
Totally agree!

I envision the Breeder Section to be a research tool and source of information good information, not a cheap gossip column, and therefore want the entire world to be able to read and post there.

Yung, is there another reason driving the question that I'm missing?
The Breeder Section is a valuable information source for sure. If it were restricted then it wouldn't serve the purpose it was intended for - to inform those seeking information on Maltese breeders, and very well send someone off to choose their breeder/pup from a glorified BYB'er, or worse the pet shop.

It's unfortunate that one "bad apple"/member who had joined last year and posted ONCE during the year has caused this brew-haha because she was ignorant, didn't read the forum rules beforehand and posted she was looking for a mate for her (most likely ill-bred dog) pup. Now her account has been frozen and she will never learn from us what is and isn't appropriate.

I wouldn't change anything regarding breeders or members posting about available pups/retirees. Let the members continue to self-police as they have for years. If it ain't broke don't fix it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,860 Posts
It's unfortunate that one "bad apple"/member who had joined last year and posted ONCE during the year has caused this brew-haha
I'm sure this one thread is not what caused all the updating of the rules. Honestly, it was just a good lead in. There has obviously been some updating going on behind the scenes...

I agree with the following statements:
If its not public its really not of much use. Typically people who come asking questions are not the "regulars" but new people to the breed looking for pups.
I'm with Marj - we already have the rule of first hand only and I think that's just fine. To be honest, I'm more uneasy if nobody ever has a negative thing to say about the breeder...it becomes an almost cultish following. No breeder can please everyone...they're human, not gods.
and

My opinion is that if there is anyone you don't want reading what you have posted then you shouldn't be posting it.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,959 Posts
I also want to make one more comment because the suggestion was made , please don't restrict any more threads to "Paid Members". This is either a public forum or it isn't.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,074 Posts
I don't see the point of this at all. Paid members are long time members for the most part. I always saw the breeder forum as being perhaps most useful to the newbies. What would be the point excluding new people from access to the info?

Also, why only non-breeders. If you look at the posts in the breeder section of the forum so many of the best ones have come from breeders. They answer questions about the choices and decisions they make.

On the occasion when someone has criticized breeders the less ethical ones have "sent someone else to speak in their defense." There would be no way to police who was a breeder and who was not. And what makes someone a breeder afterall, someone who is on the AMA list? or anyone who has ever bred a litter? We have a couple of active members who were once show breeders, but haven't bred in many years. Would they qualify?

Yung, I am not sure what the issue is here. It is hard to answer without understanding what proposal you might be considering. Without further explanation, however, I see no benefit and many drawbacks in limiting access to this section of the forum.
I envision the Breeder Section to be a research tool and source of good information, not a cheap gossip column, and therefore want the entire world to be able to read and post there.

Yung, is there another reason driving the question that I'm missing?
I in agreement with the above bold & underlined statements. I'm hesitant to make any comments myself without fully understanding the question and reasoning behind it.

Personally, I think we are on a very slippery slope when wanting to put into place black & white rules. Honestly, now that I'm finally beginning to understand the reasoning behind the suggestion in the first place, I feel this could have all been handled privately between a few trusted and established members and Joe and Yung. It would have saved a lot of emotional upheaval.

I will say I don't see any need for changing the Breeders Section. Especially if it is possibly being thought of as becoming a 'Paid Subscription'. I think if we add the 'No soliciting of sires/dams' along with the statement of not allowing offered services to help find puppies, we will be fine. If these types of things continue, because in all honesty, we had the luxury of our wonderful moderator Sher, to be able to keep things running in the 'spirit of SM' without these rules. Sadly, without a moderator who has been a part of us for many years and truly knows and understands the 'spirit of SM', we may have to go establishing new rules and function in black and white. Which will unfortunately change the 'spirit of SM' imho.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
8,543 Posts
I envision the Breeder Section to be a research tool and source of good information, not a cheap gossip column, and therefore want the entire world to be able to read and post there.

Yung, is there another reason driving the question that I'm missing?
Mary are you sure you want the entire world to be able to read and post there ?
Most new people have already their Maltese when they join. For those it's ok to have the breeder section available to them. But do we want non members to have access to that information ? If our goal is to educate people, it seems to me that people looking for a Maltese should first read everything else in the forum before reading the breeder section. If this is open to non members, people will come to the forum and go straight to that section, get their information and bye bye. And when they see the prices from show breeders they will head off to the BYB what we want to avoid in the first place. I think the breeder section should be hidden from non members. Those who join should have a number of posts made before they can see the section.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17,659 Posts
Personally, I think we are on a very slippery slope when wanting to put into place black & white rules......

we had the luxury of our wonderful moderator Sher, to be able to keep things running in the 'spirit of SM' without these rules. Sadly, without a moderator who has been a part of us for many years and truly knows and understands the 'spirit of SM', we may have to go establishing new rules and function in black and white. Which will unfortunately change the 'spirit of SM' imho.
A few have pointed to the "Dane" thread as being a singular incident, but I have actually reported a similar thread or two over the years. It was immediately removed so most never even saw it.

The problem is, Crystal, that Joe isn't as involved with SM as he used to be. While Joe had a clear idea of what constituted puppy advertising on SM, he even admitted it was hard to explain and clarify. It caused a lot of confusion and it was abused. Sher was in tune with Joe's vision for SM, but she is gone.

Rules have to be black and white otherwise they aren't rules. Guidelines and suggestions can have gray areas, but not rules. Otherwise how can anyone have proper notice what is and isn't allowed? And how can you fairly enforce vague rules? Imagine having a posted speed limit of "don't drive fast enough to endanger others on the road". Can you imagine the confusion without a posted speed limit?

I don't think anyone wants a bunch of new rules that will change the spirit of SM. But we do need rules that are fair, clearcut and easy to understand, that can be enforced by whatever administrator or moderator is in place.

Again, that's why I though Erin's definition of the different types of advertising was excellent. Anyone could read them and understand what was and wasn't allowed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,327 Posts
Janine, anything I would say in the Breeder Forum is the same as what I say each and every time someone calls looking for a rescue, a puppy, a referral, or information on the breed. And it's what I say at responsible dog ownership events, meet the breed events, obedience & agility trials and at dog shows. I don't understand who we would not want to allow to read the Breeder Forum and why. Can you give me an example?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
8,543 Posts
Janine, anything I would say in the Breeder Forum is the same as what I say each and every time someone calls looking for a rescue, a puppy, a referral, or information on the breed. And it's what I say at responsible dog ownership events, meet the breed events, obedience & agility trials and at dog shows. I don't understand who we would not want to allow to read the Breeder Forum and why. Can you give me an example?
I gave you the example. Somebody surfing the web, looking for a Maltese, finding this forum. It's not a closed forum, everybody can read it. If there is a breeder section visible to them, they will head there first thing. They will get the information they were looking for [finding a Maltese Breeder] and be gone. They are not going to read the other stuff. Some of them will cough when they see the show breeders prices and head straight to a BYB thinking "I don't want a show dog I want a pet, so why pay a show price". They won't need to ask us anything and I bet a lot won't. And it would make SM an easy source to find breeder informations without them having to work or pay for it.
When somebody calls you, or talks to you on events, you talk to the people, you are in contact with the people. You can discuss with them. When they look at the information in the breeder section, the only person they talk too is their computer screen. When they find what they are looking for, they will not bother to ask questions. Making them register and post a few posts, will make them work harder to get their information. I know it's not a perfect solution. But nothing is perfect.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
847 Posts
Don't change the Breeder section at all. Basically all the policing gets done by SM members.
Limitations would not serve any purpose.
I wouldn't change anything regarding breeders or members posting about available pups/retirees. Let the members continue to self-police as they have for years. If it ain't broke don't fix it.
AGREED!!! I think the breeder section is one of the most helpful ones for newbies and before I got Leila I spent WEEKS reading nearly all the archives in that section so I had some idea of what to look for, others' experiences, and even trying to piece together the 'looks' of different breeders' pups.

It's a great way to learn about experiences with breeders (good and bad) and help be directed toward available puppies. Again, there are more reputable breeders than are listed on the AMA list and it's near impossible to find out about them online. Some people have suggested going to shows, etc., but in my area (New England), there are very few reputable show breeders for Maltese, so that was not an option. The turnout for Maltese at shows is often very low.

I now know enough (thanks to this forum) to make good choices when it comes to breeders. I just hope newbies-to-come will not be deprived of this chance to learn about breeders in a candid, straight-forward way.

By the way, in regards to available puppy threads, I don't think it's accurate that people use it as a way to 'click and pick' their puppies. Most of us know that good breeders thoroughly screen prospective buyers and it isn't a matter of simply sending the money and showing up to pick up the dog. I think with ANY good breeder, visiting the available puppy page is only a starting point. I wouldn't be opposed to a disclaimer saying that further research is recommended and that SM does not endorse any breeder, however. Better safe than sorry.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,074 Posts
A few have pointed to the "Dane" thread as being a singular incident, but I have actually reported a similar thread or two over the years. It was immediately removed so most never even saw it.

The problem is, Crystal, that Joe isn't as involved with SM as he used to be. While Joe had a clear idea of what constituted puppy advertising on SM, he even admitted it was hard to explain and clarify. It caused a lot of confusion and it was abused. Sher was in tune with Joe's vision for SM, but she is gone.

Rules have to be black and white otherwise they aren't rules. Guidelines and suggestions can have gray areas, but not rules. Otherwise how can anyone have proper notice what is and isn't allowed? And how can you fairly enforce vague rules? Imagine having a posted speed limit of "don't drive fast enough to endanger others on the road". Can you imagine the confusion without a posted speed limit?

I don't think anyone wants a bunch of new rules that will change the spirit of SM. But we do need rules that are fair, clearcut and easy to understand, that can be enforced by whatever administrator or moderator is in place.

Again, that's why I though Erin's definition of the different types of advertising was excellent. Anyone could read them and understand what was and wasn't allowed.
I do understand that Marj. Truly I do. That's why I put that whole paragraph in about not having Sher any longer to help keep things in the spirit of SM. However, since I'm not seeing this as a huge problem, which means posts going against the spirit of SM are either being reported and taken down by Yung or Joe fairly quickly, or it's not happening frequently enough to warrant taking such drastic measures of rewriting the rules of SM. If it does become a problem, then yes, we will have to administer new rules and live in a world of black and white here on SM. :(

We are wanting the same thing. We are not disagreeing on what is and is not in the spirit of SM. It's how we go about keeping the integrity and spirit of SM to it's original intent, now that we don't have Sher. I feel that since implementing these types of black & white rules could have serious repercussions, it's much better to proceed cautiously and make changes as needed rather then implementing a whole new policy.

But I really don't feel like it's necessary to go into a lot of discussion on what should and shouldn't be until Yung answers our earlier questions on what he is really meaning or suggesting with his question.
 
1 - 20 of 95 Posts
Top